The Ironsong Tribe

Krell Wrote:You are hoping that we institute some sort of list that would be established before hand where Tribe members can sign up for specific spots as a way to prevent what had happened to most of us at some point in the past; that being showing up for a raid well in advance, and then finding out that the raid was filled without you.

Yes. That's why Psion and I are saying, and possibly others way back there on earlier pages

Quote:My statement is, what about the situations that arise where Team A would post needing 3 spots filled for a Friday night run, and then having 7 people respond that they are available. How would this situation be handled? Would we look at gear? Previous raiding experience? Give preference to those that had yet to go? Or by the first ones to sign up?

My own personal preference, speaking for myself and myself only, who doesn't run a Kara raid, would be to have the raid leader choose who to take, based on whatever criteria the raid wants to use. That'd mean trusting the raid leaders not to just grab people they're familiar with, but I don't think that'd be a problem with anyone.

I don't think taking people with the best gear is a good solution at all, because that's counter to what we want to happen - more people getting to go. I think gear has to be a consideration sometimes, but only to the degree that it would prevent someone filling a raid role.

Ditto raid experience. It's really not required for an extra person in Karazhan, and really, for me personally, I love having someone that hasn't done the fights, as long as they're willing to listen to instruction on what /not/ to do. "Do not move during flame wreath. At all." :lol: The raid leaders are the ones that need the experience, and they'll have it. Raid members just need to be able to follow directions, heh. I think a good example of this working was Lupus (I hope I'm remembering right) - his first raid was Gruul! I think he even won something his second trip, which was pretty cool.

Preference on people who have yet to go might be a good way to do it, since it'd at least let folks get a taste of Karazhan. Ideally that wouldn't be a criteria that would last long in any case.

I don't like it being the first to sign up. I can see it being frustrating for people that don't get the chance to check the forums a lot.

Other than letting the raid leader choose, my suggestion would be:
Take all the people that could fill a slot, and then randomly roll to decide (raid leader does this on their own time, or perhaps whoever's post matches up on the second the choice was made, or whatever). Maybe weight that with the idea that whoever hasn't been at all gets to go first, and if everyone's been to Kara, then randomize it.

I'm also keen on the idea of a Learning Raid, but nobody else has said anything about it, so I'm guessing that's not a popular idea :lol: I think it'd be good to shuffle folks into it, letting them see if they even /like/ raiding Karazhan, and maybe leading to people setting up new teams.

I'm going to be working shift work as of next week, but I'd be happy to work on leveling my paladin to tank.

I actually really like the idea of a learning raid, and wouldn't mind hosting it myself.

A learning raid is a good idea, but what of those members (re: me) that already know Karazhan backwards and forwards?

Then you'd be an excellent member for it Viridis I'm not saying it should be "X people that know Kara lead it, and everyone else has to be noobs about the place". I'm just saying that it'd be a raid where people wouldn't feel pressured - it'd be expected that folks would be learning how to do Kara, and possibly how to raid at all. Folks would screw up, things might move slowly, and such. There'd be much cursing of Moroes no doubt. I remember the first time I went to Kara with one of the IST groups, I was terrified I'd botch something and get everyone killed.

These days, with my regular raid, were I to, say, do something like pull an extra group of guests with a stray Chain Lightning, not that I'm admitting that to ever happening or anything, then nobody's going to freak out about it. I'd certainly get hassled about it, if it ever happened, which it certainly would not and has not, but I wouldn't feel terrible that I'd "screwed up". That's the kind of attitude I'd want folks knowing they'd be encountering, before even meeting the raid members.

Just a consideration as the thread goes forward - some people are following this avidly and posting frequently which is great. Others have made their mark and considered that all they had to say on the subject which is also perfectly cool with us all. Some are considering yet what they want to add or haven't seen it yet which we need to keep in mind.

Remember that if new folks come to this thread, or quieter folk are reading along, too-frequent posting by the same handful of people can both create a skewed perspective on what the consensus gradually seems to be and also a chilling effect on those who are slightly less apt to post already. Just be mindful and post appropriately. I don't take issue with anything so far, just giving folks some food for thought on the manner in which to actually conduct the discussion rather than on the content of it.

Also keep in mind that certain forms of humor don't translate well and aren't always easy for readers - especially ones with a vested concern in the matter - to identify. Superlatives also often muddy one's point. I'm not singling anyone out here - it's a general piece of advice applicable to anyone.

Carry on.
Tae

smiles

Thank you Tae, I had wanted to say that after my first post on this thread. And was not able to say it.

*blushes, and goes to play the game for a few hours*

Guys and gals,

This conversation is being handled very, very well. I was initially apprehensive at the level of emotion coming through in peoples' replies, but it seems to me that everyone is making a sincere, honest effort to stay compassionate and considerate. It's not without its rough patches, but those rough patches are being handled admirably.

It makes me proud as a guild leader, but on a personal level, it's giving me a deep sense of relief. As many of you know, I am currently at my intensive residency for my Masters program, and I was worried that I'd have to divide my attention between that and this. I am very pleased that you all continue to demonstrate that my trust in the Tribe's maturity and community-mindedness is not misplaced. Thank you, all.

-Srengers

Hello, and welcome to my post.

I’ve been thinking quite a bit about this issue since it was first raised/posted, and even now that I’m writing this, I still don’t think I have all my thoughts about it straight, but oh well. A lot of what I’ll say will probably have been voiced by others already, too.

There’s a number of things obstructing any swift solution to this discussion, and at least two of them are pretty important. First – availability. Entourage and Smash and Grab pretty much run on Fridays, yes (with early week mini-runs for SnG and Vanguard to make the weekend run go faster)? Vanguard runs Sundays. These runs usually start 6pm PST too. Of the people that are feeling left out and want to be able to come, how many of them would be able to make these runs for rotations?

I’m in favor of the rotation idea, because honestly, that’s what we’ve already been doing, though not with the intent to include others, but rather to fill empty spots. Either way you look at it, people were going, though not as frequently as they’d like. An established raid could handle 1-3 non-regular team-members and likely still get through the majority of the content just fine. Any more than that and things can get iffy. Why? We rely on one another knowing the fights and knowing that we can depend on one another’s’ actions/reactions to get through the encounters. Too many people not knowing what they need to do when they need to do it, or not knowing what NOT to do can be scary.

Some of them are pretty straight-forward, some of them are not. I for one don’t want to wipe repeatedly on things I’ve done time and again. I’ve been there, done that, it’s not pretty, not fun.

The second obstruction is Class. Maybe you haven’t noticed, and I’m sure you have, but there’s a shortage of tanks and healers to go around. But plenty of dps. Plenty. This will sound selfish, I know, but I have absolutely no desire to tank any part of Karazhan for another group, or for a mixed group raid – only for Smash and Grab. I say this because I’ve gone through the grinder time and time again for SnG, from the very beginning. Greyfith has everything he could possibly want out of that haunted place, except two pieces of healing gear. I did the research to find out what I needed to be a good tank, I got all my tanking gear (from quests, from questing, and a tiny bit of AH purchases) and was SET before I set foot in there. Hell, half of my tanking gear is still the stuff I went IN there with! I’m bored with tanking right now, which is why I’ve been taking my mage or shaman to what fights I can when I’m not offtanking. I do it now for SnG because I’m needed to do it for certain things. Are there going to be enough tanks and healers to go around? Will people be willing to change to help succeed?

In relation to this, please click through to this thread http://www.ironsongtribe.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3039 and fire off a post in regards to availability and class.

I have a little to say about gearing too. Rotating in people to come along for the ride and have fun and maybe get surprise gear is just fine with me, depending on who that class is we’re bringing. But let me just say, wanting to dive into Karazhan in greens and a spattering of blues, on a regular basis, with the EXPECTATION of gearing up fast is more than a little insulting to the people who worked hard to make sure they were ready BEFORE they went in there, and then worked HARD to get what they have now. I’m not saying that people are thinking this, I’m just putting it out there for what it is.

This a reason I think mixing things up may not work out so well. You need to be ready, one way or another, be it gear, or stat food, or pots (especially pots – i know a certain seductive tree that spent a lot of time making and handing out elixirs to folks to give us all that extra edge, and I’ve stockpiled more mana pots than I’m going to need for months just so I won’t ever run out on a run). I know this whole last section may ruffle feathers, but that’s too bad I’m afraid. Is it selfish of me to expect others to put in the same amount of effort that the rest of us did when first venturing into the place?

There’s a lot more I could talk about, but I’ve already deleted a good portion of the original body of this. The last thing I’d like to mention has to do with the whole camaraderie thing. I’ve been in the Tribe for a while now, and I’ve done the MC thing, and I’ve done the ZG thing, and some of the AQ thing, and the Moot thing, but it wasn’t until Smash and Grab came around that I felt like I had a connection with other Tribemates other than a handful I’d gotten to know over the months. If you feel like you’re being left out, all I can say is I know how you feel. It sucks, I know. Now think about how I, and some others might feel. It’s taken the better part of two YEARS in the tribe for me to feel connected to more than my fiancée and the few other people I ‘sorta’ knew. Much <3 SnG, for putting up with me. Yes, hearts. Don’t look at me that way.

The suggestion (even if it is defunct now) that the groups evolve to help fit in others, to SACRIFICE what we’ve built – well yeah, that hurt. It took me until tonight to try and write a post that wasn’t emotional.

I’m done, I don’t know what else to say right now.


In conclusion, please post on the “So you want to go to Karazhan…” thread so we can have some solid data to work with.

Greyfith makes good points about coming prepared and what expectations there might be for newcomers to Kara. The main reason I haven't gone other than scheduling issues has been that while my Shadow gear is ok (all good blues and crafteds from top end instances and group quests) half of my healing gear is the same stuff I was wearing when we were back in MC/ZG.

While I could probably pull it off I have not been comfortable heading in there until I geared up a bit more. Grey's gathering of tanking gear and consumables echoes what Kosath and others did back before we started 60th endgame content - farmed/quested all the best non-raided available gear (and put me to work making pots! ).

I don't think it's offensive or insulting to ask folks to be as well prepared as the reasonably can be before going into a raid. On the flip side though, the Tribe has to work together to help each other gear up, at least to an extent. We've never had a problem with this in the past and I don't expect to now. I'm sure we all remember the dozens of runs into places like BRD for FR gear, for example! : )

One final note - our raiding rules of engagement do cover this. Folks are asked to come prepared. You don't have to know all the encounters ahead of time but you might read a bit about them or about your classes role in the place and how to best go about it. You don't have to be in epics but you should have the best drops and quest rewards you can. As Zlinka said, we just need to all play together. Maybe not everyone with every other person, but at least within reason.

I apologize for the perception that some may have of myself being cliquish. I've actually played relatively little since TBC came out, far less than many of you. I levelled to 70th with Kosath and Eve, doing all the 5-man non-Heroics and quests with an assortment of Tribemates, usually whoever was around, got my Karazhan key and Imbued Netherweave set, then haven't been active content wise. I log on, chat a little bit because WoW is the only way I communicate with a few of my friends, lately I do daily quests, and have been trying to get myself over the crazy IRL patch and burnout I was feeling. I've never been to Kara or a Heroic instance. My Skyguard Ribbon was my first epic since the expansion.

I only mention those things because I want to give a bit of perspective. If I was part of some mysterious officer cabal I'd probably be way further along in content! That said, I'm looking forward to doing more things with the Tribe and playing a bit of catchup like a few other folks who have posted. The difference between officers and non-officer members is totally arbitrary, remember - we're all just folks playing WoW together. Don't think we're not like everyone else.

Or I'll boot you. (Just kidding! )

Tae

I had an idea off the top of my head while I was talking with Kosath yesterday. I'll toss it up here and see how it goes over.

What if we did something like a mixed Karazhan group one week and then the next week the original kara group goes and rotate like that? We could group with people we haven't grouped with in a long time and raid with some we haven't grouped with at all while still being able to go with our original group...have our cake and eat it too (<nodnod Sound>) I don't know who said it but, after all...what good is having cake if you can't eat it?

I haven't posted sooner because I really didn't know what to say. I knew what I felt, which is that I LOVE my insane, loopy, affectionate (Anathamon not included in this part because he hates us all ),totally off the wall Karazhan group, and I don't want that to go away.

I really haven't -needed- anything from kara for a couple of months, but these people are the reason I still go every week and they are dear to me. That absolutely does not mean that I think other people aren't good enough to go with, or that I don't like them. I hope I didn't give that impression

A lot of my thoughts echo Grey's, except the seductive tree part (I will get you for that), and other people's who have posted so I won't yap much longer :wink: The idea I came up with was a compromise to keep some of what we had and also group with other people.

Ok, I'm done.


Wait, one last thing.


PIE

I do like the idea of a periodic mixing, and I think it would be a good compromise if we set it up. Just remember that if we did mix the groups on any night, you would still have several other people from your original group with you, plus several people who you do know and probably miss.

I realized something while talking to Mahiah yesterday actually, and based on other posts and tells I've seen from people recently. I want every one of you to think back to your very first raid with Ironsong.

I actually remember Chaska and Khrale joining the guild and coming with us to ZG for the first time. Chaska won the shield from Jek'lik and we were all very happy for her. I remember Oryx and Zlinka joining us for Molten Core, and Dokcha as well. I remember Efluvia and Selerinus and Efluvious joining us, Mordeous and Knat and Saltin, Krell and many many more...

I remember the first time nearly every new person came on a raid that I lead, because they thanked me for the opportunity and ease of inclusion they fealt.

My point is, every person here was that new person wanting to be included in a larger group of friends at one time. Consider then, if you think your transition into the guild would have been as easy if we had run ZG and MC as we run Karazhan now. If everyone was busy with their raid groups, and you kept logging in with no healers or tanks available, would you still be here? Would you have become such great friends with the people you are now if they had been on the outside?

The only people in this Tribe who have never had to fight for inclusion are the founding members, and we're the ones who are for greater inclusion. Please consider that.

I say we give Mahiah's rotation idea a try (smart tree, and she loves cake AND PIE). One week mixed groups, the next old groups or something thereabouts.

I am only going to ask for one thing, that we know ahead of time when our raid is and whether we are included or not. We always say in the tribe that RL comes first, and this would allow me to plan my RL and WOW life so that neither suffer. My wife is a saint, but I owe her at least that.

-Jaba

So am I correct then that we are gonna try Mahiah's idea? How's this gonna go?