I applaud the goal of making Ironsong more inclusive, but I question whether raiding is the appropriate vehicle for this. I cringe every time someone logs on and says hello to the tribe in /guild only to be met with silence. It's gotten to the point that I don't even bother saying anything when I log on, because I don't want to be ignored by 15 of the 17 people online. Yes, we're all busy, but this sort of thing makes a deep and lasting impression, especially with newer members. I don't care how busy you are. You can take 2 seconds to say hello. (Hell, call it roleplaying!) And I would probably be considered part of the "in" crowd. If I feel that way, I can only imagine how others feel. Many of the folks who are strong advocates for more inclusive raiding policies are the worst offenders here. Want to do something to end cliquishness and isolation? There's a good place to start.
The moots, too, could be made more welcoming and friendly. For those of us who are not officers, there isn't much more to do than sit and listen to the officers. I say keep the business short and get on with something more interesting, like real RP. As someone who has chaired many a meeting, I don't think there's any reason the business of the Tribe should take more than 10-15 minutes. Make an agenda and stick with it.
The one place where I *have* found a warm and welcome embrace in Ironsong is with Team Smash & Grab. Whether you've raided with them 30 times or it's your first time, you're treated like a welcome friend and made to feel part of the group. The zany banter is a huge part of the appeal. But none of it is exclusive to the "in" crowd. And I've never seen them turn someone away when there's an available slot, regardless of gear or anything else. I would turn the argument on its head and say that the Karazhan groups are examples of what we're doing right in Ironsong. Yes, they could be more inclusive, and I've seen a lot of good suggestions above for making that happen, but all in all they are a big part of what makes IST so great (in my opinion).
As a Tribe we could be better at scheduling raiding. Kosath mentioned Leftovers, and I think that's a perfect example of raid scheduling done right. With a little careful planning we could highlight available slots in Kara groups and get them filled. I know a number of us are pretty much done with Karazhan loot wise, so this would give some of the old hands a chance to step back and take a break for one or two runs in order to give new folks a chance to try their hand at Medivh's tower. As long as we know our place is being filled by a responsible person and the group won't suffer for our absence, we're happy to step aside. Efluvious and Damoxian have both been moving in this direction already.
One last thought about loot. While I agree that Ironsong raiding should not be solely about loot, I think it's naive to think that someone is going to put that much time into raiding, day after day, week after week, month after month and not care about getting certain drops. Every time we down the Prince and Gorehowl doesn't drop or he's on Tetsumis my heart goes out to Jiv because I know how long he's wanted that drop. Yes, it's just pixels, but it means something to him because he's put the time in. When Krell got that awesome bow from the Prince, as happy as I was for him, I couldn't help but think about Mizar and how many times he hasn't gotten the bow. When the Mindblade finally dropped for me, every single one of our raid group immediately started congratulating me. Yes, there were others who could have used it, but there was a recognition that I'd been working towards the dagger for a long time and it was important to me. Loot is not the be all and end all, but it's important to many of us and is often a tangible measure of our commitment and progress. I think what people are trying to say here is that loot should never be considered more important than intangibles like group cohesion and harmony, a sense of being part of a larger whole and contributing to a group effort, etc.
I hadn't meant to ramble, but it seems I had more to say than I thought. My sincere apologies if I've offended anyone. *cough*Paragraph 2*cough* That was certainly not my intention. I have the utmost respect for Kosath to bring this discussion forward, knowing it would be so contentious. It's never easy being the instigator of change, especially when the alternative to the status quo is unknown. But I believe the discussion is a healthy one and has been a long time coming.
Edit: Changed Paragraph 2 because it really was obnoxious, and that wasn't my intention.
So, I've had a lot of reading above, and have had a lot of time to sit on the ideas and become a bit more level headed, talk to Kosath in game, I feel a bit more solid about why something like this means so much to me as a person, not as a player, raider or ironsong member. Unlike Jabadue, I have intentionally let my emotions have a big part of my thoughts on this matter, to cut a long story very short: for myself and a few others, there's not been a lot of consistency in our lives the last few months, and the bond that our goofy 10 man team of Smash and Grab has developed has pulled us through it (which can't really be explained in words, its something that is experienced -- it's there and very real and part of all of us), it's been our outlet and only consistency that we've had; because of this its not something that we'd like to see dispersed.
That being said: I've got some uplifting ideas on this.
I'd love to start doing more 5-man groupings with people that I've not grouped with before -- as a way to get to know more of the tribe better -- not so much in 10-man raids, but 5-man content. I think that Harsh Winter's 5-man instance "LFG"/"Scheduled Instance" section that they have on their members forum seems to have a good workings. Have an instance you want to run? Have a group quest that you'd like to organize? Feel free to post your "I'd like to do this at this time, who's available?" thread. It would be very organized, could have a set time, not need to look for a healer or tank last minute. it would just be "here's what were doing, when and who with." and hey! it would be open to everyone.
As far as 10-man content goes: A roster of "who's available when" thread would be helpful for filling missing spots in current team setups. Say character "Ohhaiihealz" is recently keyed, they can post so, what time they can raid, and if they're locked into a raid at any time. Current teams can then say "oh hey, we need a healer for later this week, lets see who's available... oh rawer! Ohhaiiheals is available." neat, easy, and quick. No need to search for an hour before raid starts for a healer. Also -- most likely a guild member. It's a good situation to be in.
Just my little bit of two cents as to a start to a more inclusive Tribe.
Vanea Wrote:Say character "Ohhaiihealz" is recently keyed, they can post so, what time they can raid, and if they're locked into a raid at any time. Current teams can then say "oh hey, we need a healer for later this week, lets see who's available... oh rawer! Ohhaiiheals is available." neat, easy, and quick. No need to search for an hour before raid starts for a healer. Also -- most likely a guild member. It's a good situation to be in.
Just my little bit of two cents as to a start to a more inclusive Tribe.
Dude, everyone knows Ohhaiihealz is a Shadow Priest. He wants to pew, pew like everyone else.
Ok, this is why I don't visit the totem often - I just had my nicely composed reply that took me an hour to type out and edit to my liking deleted because the stupid totem wanted me to relog in.. so I'm just going to summarize and you'll have to forgive my ticked off attitude brought on by stupid forums deleting my posts. =P
1. If you want in Karazhan, patience and initiative are your keys. Abbru wanted in and started up Entourage.. which took months to finally pull together. Also don't limit yourself to Tribe - Logros and Rajana are good examples of this. Also, we *ARE* rotating in people in two of our leading KZ groups, but patience again is going to be key.
2. If you want to do more with the Tribe, again initiative is your key. Create an RP event (it doesn't have to be epic or serious, it can be just silly fun). Examples: Krell's hunting expedition/competition to the SW island of Feralas to kill chimera things for meat. Dokcha's dragon hunt for Onyxia
3. Life isn't fair. You can't have everything at once. Learn to adapt. We'll try to help when we can but the laws of physics and Blizzard design sometimes binds our hands.
Much more explanation and example and eloquent other points were deleted by stupid login requests.. if you want to hear them, talk to me in game.
*sigh*
Psion Wrote:I applaud the goal of making Ironsong more inclusive, but I question whether raiding is the appropriate vehicle for this.
Imo, that's a good point. 10-man raiding is about the least-RP thing in the game. "Ok, we're going to go kill the Shade of Aran.... again.." I really like the idea of the Camps. And I'd also love to see stuff like us going back to MC, whacking Nefarion, etc. Someone was spearheading an effort to get Naxxramas going, and I'd
love to be involved in that. The old instances aren't nearly as difficult, and thus aren't going to need to be as tightly controlled for people to have fun.
Quote:The moots, too, are quite frankly mind-numbing. For those of us who are not officers, a moot consists of "listening" to officers pontificate for two hours in /say, punctuated by an occasional emote or two from other associated members.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but in general I agree. I've only been to a handful of moots, but what I did experience didn't exactly generate enthusiasm for coming back. It moved very, very slowly, and there wasn't really much inclusion involved. If there's a long speech involved, that's great - but typing it out beforehand and cut/pasting it into the game would be much faster, and give it a lot more oomph.
Quote:I would turn the argument on its head and say that the Karazhan groups are examples of what we're doing right in Ironsong. Yes, they could be more inclusive, and I've seen a lot of good suggestions above for making that happen, but all in all they are a big part of what makes IST so great (in my opinion).
Another point i'd agree with. The group of folks I'm most comfortable with is my Karazhan raid, and they're not even IST. The other group of folks I'm really comfortable with are the people I often do Heroics with. The second group is one I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to expand, with very little success.
Quote:While I agree that Ironsong raiding should not be solely about loot, I think it's naive to think that someone is going to put that much time into raiding, day after day, week after week, month after month and not care about getting certain drops. *snip* I think what people are trying to say here is that loot should never be considered more important than intangibles like group cohesion and harmony, a sense of being part of a larger whole and contributing to a group effort, etc.
Well put again. Every time my raid drops the Prince, there's a thrill of waiting to see what's been dropped, hoping it's the Mindblade or my T4 helm. Like Psion says, the day Jiv gets Gorehowl, a lot of folks are going to be really happy for him. Tonight the Shade dropped the druid tanking ring, and it was great seeing it go to our raid's druid tank.
Comraderie is definitely the more important aspect to raiding for many of us, but honestly, if it was the /only/ aspect, we'd be standing around Orgrimmar chatting.
Quote:As far as 10-man content goes: A roster of "who's available when" thread would be helpful for filling missing spots in current team setups.
I think doing the inverse would be much easier and far more efficient - having people that are going to miss raids post the raid info, and have interested people post to that thread. If we do it with people posting their availability, they're going to have to keep that updated constantly, and it many cases it won't be constant anyways, making the reference pretty much useless for them. Plenty of people work shift work. And it's going ot mean that every time a raid leader needs to fill a slot, they're going to have to go through a big, big chunk of info to find the people they need, then contact them to see if they're actually available, then do that again if that person doesn't work out, etc.
Then again, there's no reason I can think of not to do both
Logros Wrote:Quote:As far as 10-man content goes: A roster of "who's available when" thread would be helpful for filling missing spots in current team setups.
I think doing the inverse would be much easier and far more efficient - having people that are going to miss raids post the raid info, and have interested people post to that thread. If we do it with people posting their availability, they're going to have to keep that updated constantly, and it many cases it won't be constant anyways, making the reference pretty much useless for them. Plenty of people work shift work. And it's going ot mean that every time a raid leader needs to fill a slot, they're going to have to go through a big, big chunk of info to find the people they need, then contact them to see if they're actually available, then do that again if that person doesn't work out, etc.
Then again, there's no reason I can think of not to do both
How about this. On Thursday of the prior week, the group leader (or someone assigned the task of scheduling) posts the group make up for the following week.
Monday, 6:00 PM
Tank 1 (Main Tank): Meat
Tank 2: Peat
Healer 1: Heelz
Healer 2: Seelz
Healer 3: *Open*
Ranged DPS 1: Bo
Ranged DPS 2: *Open*
Melee DPS 1 (Main Assist): Stabbie
Melee DPS 2: Flabbie
Utility: *Open*
Classes needed: (1) Healer, (1) Ranged DPS, (1) Utility/Other
Based on this post, someone who wants to come will post their interest, perhaps with gear, spec, etc. (although I guess the Armory makes this largely unnecessary). The slots can be filled first come first serverd, via lottery, on a rotating basis or whatever. Signing up is affirming that you are available to raid at the appointed time and will be there as promised.
Then on Sunday night, let's say, they post the final slotting for the following week.
Tank 1 (Main Tank): Meat
Tank 2: Feat (Peat can't make it due to family obligations)
Healer 1: Heelz
Healer 2: Seelz
Healer 3: Noobz
Ranged DPS 1: Bo
Ranged DPS 2: Nubz
Melee DPS 1 (Main Assist): Stabbie
Melee DPS 2: Flabbie
Utility: Retnoobz
Yup, that's pretty much exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. Raid leaders could be as specific or as general in what they wanted for their raid setup, and folks could try to fit themselves in.
I'd rather see the raid leader get to choose the applicant though. The social dynamic of the raid is pretty important, and fitting people in randomly might mess that up.
Thats kind of what we are trying to avoid with the change actually. We want to mix things up and get people to know one another. Otherwise we might as well just leave it as is.
Psion Wrote:I applaud the goal of making Ironsong more inclusive, but I question whether raiding is the appropriate vehicle for this. I cringe every time someone logs on and says hello to the tribe in /guild only to be met with silence. It's gotten to the point that I don't even bother saying anything when I log on, because I don't want to be ignored by 15 of the 17 people online. Yes, we're all busy, but this sort of thing makes a deep and lasting impression, especially with newer members.
Psion has a good point about gchat. I for one am horrible with it because I tend to ignore my chatbox quite a bit (especially when grouping/pvping). However, while raiding may not be a good place to RP (but can still be done) it is more about being with tribe members and accomplishing goals together. That part hasn't changed from the old MC days. When we first were getting bosses in Kharazan down for the first time, we were congratulated by members of Ironsong not in that team. When Gruul fell, it was a concerted effort and the tribe celebrated.
Psion Wrote:For me, raiding/heroic runs aren't about getting the ubergear, they're about working as part of a team to do something challenging. The fact of the matter though, is that raiding Kara and doing Heroics requires a certain level of equipment in order for the raid/group to be a success
As for gear requirements, lets just say I have a very open mind as far as Kharazan goes. When we started Kharazan, and even in the upper echelons of the place, we still were wearing lots of blues and even a few greens. (remember Efluvious' level 63 blue shoulders that I tanked THE PRINCE in? yeah.... and the green belt that I wore forever because I never did that quest in netherstorm. then a week after I did it, moroes dropped his belt finally). It makes it somewhat more difficult, but not impossible. Especially since most people now have at least several pieces of Kharazan gear/pvp epics. Every freakin' tank has a kings defender. We used to drool over level 70 green 'of the champion' stuff!
So, in conclusion since I'm going to bed, Kharazan is the beginning raiding instance for a reason. I find it easier than most heroics actually. I mean, lets face it. who wants to do heroic durnholde anyway? =P
Psion Wrote:The moots, too, are quite frankly mind-numbing. For those of us who are not officers, a moot consists of "listening" to officers pontificate for two hours in /say, punctuated by an occasional emote or two from other associated members. I say keep the business short and get on with something more interesting, like real RP. As someone who has chaired many a meeting, I don't think there's any reason the business of the Tribe should take more than 10-15 minutes. Make an agenda and stick with it.
Well...um I feel quite differently actually. I usually find it is the officers wanting to get things done so real RP can be done. =P I have seen them go to great lengths to do some really neat stuff at the moots. Remember the moot in Moonglade where Eveline had the nightmare engulfed object? Kolem collected like 500 fireworks and we all shot them off? That was just cool. And thats not the only example. We've had some really cool moots, and they put the little time they have to play into those so we can enjoy the game that much more.
I have seen Sreng on several occasions /yell Shaddup! (or something to that effect) as well.
I try to attend every moot (which obviously doesn't happen, but yeah). I really liked Srengs RP thing he had going, it just fell apart due to time contraints I believe. Gholjans looks really cool as well.
Efluvious Wrote:Thats kind of what we are trying to avoid with the change actually. We want to mix things up and get people to know one another. Otherwise we might as well just leave it as is.
Hey 'Flu, were you referring to the idea of scheduling raids and filling available slots with non-members or were you talking about the leader filling slots so as not to upset the social dynamic? I know it was late, so I won't hold your vague and rambling thoughts against you.
Ironsong is not a raiding guild. Nevertheless, raiding new content is an important activity for the Tribe that should not be swept into the shadows. Doing other stuff, like raiding obsolete, old-world dungeons or roleplay, are fine activities, but they cannot replace the attraction and challenge of new content. Old-world raiding is like tourism. RP is wonderful, and yes, we should do more (!!), but RP cannot replace playing the game together, either.
Here's why.
Friendships emerge when people confront and overcome challenges together. In Warcraft, that means playing the game together. Playing builds community. That's WHY these raids have such an intense, family feeling. This is the force that binds people together, and it is powerful, emotional stuff. It's social glue.
You don't even have to start out as friends... people who were once strangers participate and often they become your friends too. Several groups have pointed out that some of their founding members were strangers to them but now they're friends. Of course. This is no surprise. It's because they played together.
Ironsong's intense family feeling of last year has been largely compartmentalized into these mini-raids, because the guild as a whole no longer plays together. So we have little pods of people playing together and forming these intense social bonds, and a cold, lonely place outside for everyone else. And yes, we've heard numerous times from the in-group participants that the family feeling experienced in the mini-raids feels wonderful. Closed circles of friends with their shared history and shared jokes are GREAT from the inside.
That is why, even though Ironsong is not a raid guild, it is still VERY important to play the game together. To bring new people in, play with them, and thus bind them to the group in a large self-renewing social entity -- the guild -- that transcends the little raid groups. The key is to get more people playing together, in more combinations, to bind them sideways and crossways and every which way to each other. Weave them together through shared play experience, and the guild as a whole will experience cohesion and shared identity. Leave them in their little pods with little circulation, and the pods will become internally strong but will have few links to the outside and guild unity is lost -- that's the problem we have now.
And yes, I know. Class balance. Progression. What I hope to see emerge here is a system that allows for progression AND enough circulation between groups to reduce team cliquishness and increase whole-guild cohesion. It will be a balancing act. Too much focus on progression and you get isolated pods that tear at the guild's social fabric. Too much focus on circulation and you get lack of progression and ultimately raid failure. But Ironsong has found a middle way before, and I think we can do it again.
-Zlinka
The leader choosing people thing. To be honest, I don't know how much I could trust myself not to choose the same people over and over again out of familiarity and still leave people in the dust. The social dynamic is what we are trying to expand, and it can sometimes be easier if it is random for that type of thing, especially with us shyer types
Zlinka Wrote:That is why, even though Ironsong is not a raid guild, it is still VERY important to play the game together. To bring new people in, play with them, and thus bind them to the group in a large self-renewing social entity -- the guild -- that transcends the little raid groups. The key is to get more people playing together, in more combinations, to bind them sideways and crossways and every which way to each other. Weave them together through shared play experience, and the guild as a whole will experience cohesion and shared identity. Leave them in their little pods with little circulation, and the pods will become internally strong but will have few links to the outside and guild unity is lost -- that's the problem we have now.
Exactly and much more eloquent than I could have put it.
Efluvious Wrote:Well...um I feel quite differently actually. I usually find it is the officers wanting to get things done so real RP can be done. =P I have seen them go to great lengths to do some really neat stuff at the moots. Remember the moot in Moonglade where Eveline had the nightmare engulfed object? Kolem collected like 500 fireworks and we all shot them off? That was just cool. And thats not the only example. We've had some really cool moots, and they put the little time they have to play into those so we can enjoy the game that much more.
I have seen Sreng on several occasions /yell Shaddup! (or something to that effect) as well.
I try to attend every moot (which obviously doesn't happen, but yeah). I really liked Srengs RP thing he had going, it just fell apart due to time contraints I believe. Gholjans looks really cool as well.
I'm just a bitter old priest. What more can I say? I know many people love the moots, and I DO know the officers spend a lot of time planning them, so I probably should have just kept my yap shut on this one. I just don't "get it" most of the time, but that's my problem.
Edit: Zlinka, that was an excellent post, with much food for thought.
Zlinka Wrote:That is why, even though Ironsong is not a raid guild, it is still VERY important to play the game together. To bring new people in, play with them, and thus bind them to the group in a large self-renewing social entity -- the guild -- that transcends the little raid groups. The key is to get more people playing together, in more combinations, to bind them sideways and crossways and every which way to each other. Weave them together through shared play experience, and the guild as a whole will experience cohesion and shared identity. Leave them in their little pods with little circulation, and the pods will become internally strong but will have few links to the outside and guild unity is lost -- that's the problem we have now.
That is probably the best summation of what we are trying to accomplish that I could ask for. Thank you for putting things in a clear perspective Zlinka.