Mellith brings up a good point that Shillatae and Zeengo have both touched on as well. This isn't just about raiding, though it does have a part since it is the way to improve your character. Without raiding or character progression we'd all be level 1s in the valley of trials RPing about how the boars are taking over the world and those damned imps keep catching the brush on fire.
There has been a noticable lack of RPing lately, and the moots have been less than interesting lately, at least for me. The last one I attended, there was a lot of chatter, which isn't bad, but when someone wanting to join the tribe can't get a word in edgewise when they have been asked to introduce themselves, there's a problem.
The chatter just means that there isn't enough gathering at other times going on imho. Everyone wants to talk to each other but weekly moots don't seem to be sufficient, or not the right setting for some discussions. I dunno, just some more observations on my part.
Kosath Wrote:I am likely cancelling my plans to attend the west coast moot based on this. Many of the attitudes expressed here have made me, a founding member of this guild, feel that I would be an invasive outsider among a group of Tribemates. How do you imagine that attitude makes our new-to-70 members feel?
That was genuinely, genuinely, genuinely not my intention to do that. And I'm infinitely sorry if it has come off that way. I want you there Kosath, and I truly hope you come. I think your presence there would actually help a lot of things in regards to this, honestly. That may just be my two cents.. but please consider still coming. We can be a dramatic lot, that's for freakin' sure, but I know behind some of the tough words here (certainly my own) there is also a yearning for compromise and an ability to be worked with.
Yes, I'll admit I'm horrid at change. Yes, I said in my post I don't want to do it. Yes, it was also written at 2:30AM and went on for WAAY too freakin' long. However when push comes to shove and the inevitable something happens (because I do realize it can't stay this way forever), I'll say here. Know that I my be biting my tongue a ton whilst it goes down (as I've made clear), but I will be there in the end - regardless of what else has been said. I haven't stuck with this guild and loved it as much as I have this past year and a half not to.
Call me John Kerry on my stance taking, but I love Ironsong before and after my dramatic outbursts and the heart all of us have shown here has renewed that in me tenfolds. If me biting the bullet and inviting a very uncomfortable at first change is what it'll take for the betterment of the tribe and towards a more peaceful and open structure itself, so be it. Such a decision won't be made without loss on any of our parts, but it's the gain I'm trying to focus on this morning instead.
While I may be doing it nervously, here's to taking one step closer to that place Krell talked about reaching.
*edited for my foul language. :">
Kosath Wrote:but you should understand that part of the reason you aren't seeing them, is that they have slowly stopped playing all together. That includes at least one officer. Oryx put it best: If you can't group at 70th, you can't do anything.
Just wanted to add, this is very very true. I was forced to take a break from WoW for real life reasons and during that time a majority of the tribe passed into Heroics. I returned and where I was normally sought to be a fuzzy tank inside of ten minutes of logging, several hours would pass flying around in circles over Shat. I'm not big on farming for rep or the like solo and outside of the occasional need for an outdoor event, there really wasn't a thing for me to do. Without group play, WoW is pretty lame... I don't even remember the last time I logged in. Honestly, I miss pre-BC. Heroics screwed casual gamers or those that just get behind the progression of the server. Pre-BC, in a guild a third the size of IST, there was always someone needing help with Strat, or Scholo, or SOMETHING. Now, anyone doing five man is doing Heroics that I'm not even 25% into the rep for and without gear from the Heroics, you can't even look at the tower. Blegh.
Gimme Warhammer already.
I even miss those hideous hideous runs into COT:BM.
Not least because Sound is very entertaining when she freaks out.
Here's the intermission to this thread.
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((whoops originally posted as gholjan when I ninjaed his computer >_< ))
As kaerah kinda notioned on, the big issue isn't so much that its the raiding thats causing the issue. I don't see nearly as many people complaining about not getting into kara as I see complaining they can not find 5man groups. The raiding problems are just the tip of the logistics problems that the current 5man gearing gave us. Now I know I am hard pressed to find groups I want, but I am also hard pressed to be convinced to go to boring instances
Karazhan has been the outlet for that boredom for many and I can sympathise with the want to go there for that reason. I know that the moment I got 70, if people didn't ask me (gho and dokcha) to go to kara I would still be doing 5mans and heroics.
The issue in that is motivating those that already seen all that to go back and do it all again. I have been trying to run what I can when I felt I can (running the low low stuff with peoples alts for example) but that is only a bandage on the arterial bleed of what is going on. I saddly have no clue on how to solve a problem like that. We could schedule all the events in the world, but if people are not motivated or feel up to doing it then it will fail. There is nothing I could ever do to change peoples minds and nor do I feel like I have the right to do so. Because in the end, if someone doesn't want to do something I would rather not force them.
People keep talking about the camaraderie you get in kara. Why is this different from what we see in gruul's? Thats just as much of a guild event, and has more people raiding in it.
In my opinion, its simply due to the fact that only one person can talk at a time on vent. In gruul, there's too much of a "please be quiet now so we can kill this thing" feeling, which tends to eliminate the banter. Conversations get pared down to discussions of tactics and not much else. In kara, you're only talking with 9 other people, and you have more time in between boss fights. This lets you talk about other things, and provides much of the raiding dynamic. When there are 25 people, there just isn't as much room for personalities to show through. This of course means that you get more attached to people in a 10 man, but I don't think this is a bad thing, and I also don't think that trying to force people to bond with everyone is a good idea. I've raided with a couple other kara runs with different guilds, and decided to hide when I saw their "LFG" add based on experiences over vent (not to name names, but there's a certain druid raid leader who rambles on and on telling people how to do their jobs, not the complex stuff, just the "you need to get aggro fast" sort of thing). If I found a similar issue with an Ironsong member that I got placed with, it just wouldn't be fun.
In my opinion, a streamlined process for introducing alternates is better than breaking up established successful groups. Just a post giving the raid schedule of the current groups, people posting char names/specs/schedules once they're keyed, and people posting absences in a predictable location would help a lot. It would cycle new people into the current kara groups, while keeping the core there to help with progression. And as far as the core goes, I think its less about geared people, and more about people that know the fight and how that particular group handles the fight. Gear helps, of course, but its not essential until you get to the prince and nightbane, and is mainly an issue for the tank on those two encounters.
As a side note, many people say they don't care much about progression, but deep down it matters. Not because of the loot, but because people get frustrated when things stall or go backwards. Thats one of the reasons Blood Cult is pretty much defunct now. The raid started going backwards, and people just stopped logging on for it. It started with having problems with people gone for RL issues, which lead to attempts to teach random fill in people the boss encounters with mediocre group composition, when we were barely beating the encounter with regulars. People weren't having fun attempting the same boss multiple times and failing, when they one-shotted the boss the previous 2 weeks. Thus, they didn't feel it was worth it to log on and raid, and the group started having more and more vacancies. I'm not saying that there needs to be fast progression and everyone needs to respec to the "perfect" spec, but I do think that if raids start moving backwards you'll see people leaving. Even if raiding isn't the focus of the guild, it gives people something fun to do on a weekly basis, and is an important part of what keeps people logging on.
Well, I think it's pretty clear at this point that we're not doing what I originally suggested, and that is entirely fine. I have no real attachment to the idea, and to be honest, it would have been a helluva lot of work.
What we do have is a discussion on how to get people into Karazhan and how to get more 5-mans going. That, I think, is the real key and I am glad to focus on that.
Please keep the ideas coming.
It fell apart in the past, but I always liked those quest assistance nights. The ones where folk could get world elite quests cleared out of their books. I could probably be convinced to dust off Kaerrah to tank that sort of thing. But I remember the last one of those I showed up for. It was me and one other (one of you healy troll shaman folk, don't ask me to remember who) sitting there for a half an hour offering out our services. There were easily a dozen people from 40 to 65 that should have been more than happy to clear some quests about to go grey or do an instance they don't want to pug.
How about, instead of an open night we start up a list. Alts (or mains) in need of help. Everything from a few quests to farming an instance for that one particular drop. So rather than 'Thursday night, show up for help with quests' they can specify what they need and when they're available. And anyone who wants can pop on to help them. Though, the success of that would depend on how many people actually browse the forums.
Well, since I doubt most folks want to read my rambling, I'll post my two big suggestions right off:
1) Join IronsongLFG. Get the Tribe as a whole to do that. People are very rarely looking for groups in guild chat now, it's in LFG. Plenty of great non-guild people use the channel these days as well, and I find a /lot/ of gropus that way. And yet, I frequently do channel queries to see who's in the channel, and we'll often only have a handful of IST people in it, even if there's a big chunk of the Tribe online. If you're having trouble finding groups, and you're not in that channel, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
2) Set up a forum where raid members can post when they'll be missing their raid spot, so that people can check that, and if they fit the time/role, can "Apply" for that spot. I think this would work far better than trying to get up a calendar of availability or something like that, where raid leaders have to try to find people. This way the people wanting to go can give a definate "I can be there" instead of having to list general availability (which for many of us, if not most, changes a great deal).
3) If you're looking for people for a group, don't be afraid to ask them with a /whisper! I put together Heroic groups all the time, and often I get people by checking the Armory for their reputation with the Heroic we're trying to run (and making sure their gear is 'ok'), and then asking them if they'd like to come. A lot of the time this is because they're not in IronsongLFG.
4) If you want to get lots and lots of groups, be a tank or healer. For tanks, there's warrior/druid/paladin. For healer, there's priest/shaman/druid/paladin. Not a lot of competition for those roles. For DPS/CC spots, there's nearly every single class to compete with (warrior/druid/priest/shaman/rogue/hunter/warlock/mage). 8 classes instead of 3 or 4 to compete with.
**
/ramble
For me, raiding/heroic runs aren't about getting the ubergear, they're about working as part of a team to do something challenging. The fact of the matter though, is that raiding Kara and doing Heroics requires a certain level of equipment in order for the raid/group to be a success. Nobody likes wiping 5 times to get a boss down, or having the group stall out because you just can't beat the boss with the group you've got. I think most folks wanting to get into raiding/heroics understand that, but I wanted to reiterate it.
Honestly, as someone else said, I don't think the heart of the issue is Karazhan raiding group availability, but group composition in general. We've got a handful of people that can main tank, and a slightly larger handful of people who can main heal. And then we've got a gajillion DPSers. In a 5-man, you need a tank and a healer, and 3 others. Usually two of those others need to be a class that can do CC as well as DPS, and fortunately most can CC. If Karazhan could be run with 10 DPSers, I think we'd probably be able to put together an extra raid or two. But it can't. As was said, by Eflu I believe, folks that want to get into places like Karazhan are likely to have more success if they're willing to spec (and gear!) for healing or off-tanking, or for some really good crowd control (like a survival hunter).
I've done a lot of DPS/healing for random non-heroic groups that needed it with Logros (sometimes respeccing just for that run), and will continue to do so. I'm seemingly a pretty popular go-to guy for when a group needs some big DPS, ditto for healing (don't ask how much I used to spend per week to respec to Resto for Heroic groups), and a lot of the time I'm happy to oblige. I love getting folks the rep they need for Heroic access, I've done more 'getting someone a key piece' runs than I can count. And there's a LOT of us doing that kind of thing, because it's fun for us, and helping out the Tribe is rewarding. But the folks wanting help getting into Kara and Heroics have to step up to be helped too. As others have said, a lot of the time when I see someone trying to put together a run somewhere in IronsongLFG, it's a ghost channel as far as Tribemates are concerned. My paladin is level 60, and I'm not really expecting to get many instance runs in before I hit 70, simply because not a lot of folks seem willing to go (I'm even a healer!)
Kaerrah Wrote:Though, the success of that would depend on how many people actually browse the forums.
I think that'd be the ideas downfall. In my experience, it's best to keep things ingame.
I like the quest assistance nights too, and would make more of them if I wasn't doing Kara on most Wednesdays :/
Logros Wrote:Kaerrah Wrote:Though, the success of that would depend on how many people actually browse the forums.
I think that'd be the ideas downfall. In my experience, it's best to keep things ingame.
I like the quest assistance nights too, and would make more of them if I wasn't doing Kara on most Wednesdays :/
Unfortunately, there is no means to put up something like that in game.
*sigh*
What I wouldn't give for a built in Guild Bulletin Board.
Efluvious Wrote:Okay, so we've had some good discussion. I, despite feeling they way Naruth does, still want this to happen, at least to some extent. My first post still stands! I want to include as many people as I can. I think I'll expand on what I said about Zul'aman a bit more.
More than half of SnG is done with Kharazan. It is that simple. They come to be with friends. I want to move that to Zul'aman and have Kharazan be a tribe thing. I REALLY honestly want to group with others and get to know them better! Its what not only being in a guild is about, but its why we have RL moots too, (which i am looking forward to immensely, despite only being able to stay a day and a half).
I understand what Naruth, Vanea and others (some who have not posted) are saying and if they don't want to participate, thats okay. There's nothing wrong with it, and you shouldn't feel pressured to do it. I think if we do this, BOTH sides will be happy (i.e. move SnG/Vanguard to Zul'aman, reorganize Kharazan raiding) I for one would like to do both, because I *do* feel a close bond with SnG and yet I also do want to help out and at least get aquainted with some of the newer members of the tribe and those existing members that I never really have known.
This includes members of Vanguard as well. I want to group with you more. For raiding purposes alone I want to get a feel for how each of you play and then can gauge more accurately how things will go in the 25-man content, and who would do well in certain roles. Kosath wants the same thing I believe. He and I have tanked together a total of 4-5 times, all of them on the azeroth raiding nights. I don't think I've ever grouped with Fleethoof at all as a tank.
Kosath, I don't think the original goal is dead, but maybe the method is. Is there anyone who disagrees with the goal of a more inclusive and connected tribe in which we all know each other better?
After mulling it for awhile, I feel very much like Efluvious. My proposals were an attempt to get us moving toward the goal that you and Efluvious have stated, i. e. trying to get the process going while preserving as much of the friendships of the original groups as possible. Personally, I would love to raid again with you and the old MC/ZG crew, as well as the new folks. I am also looking forward to Zul'aman with SnG (if they'll have their stolid and stoic ol'Jaba).
I guess a question is whether a more limited approach of voluntary rotations, a better mechanism for substitutions within the tribe, and perhaps, a fourth raid would serve the purpose of those who want more interaction, those who need more access to Kara, and those who want to keep their groups? If this is not the answer, then, another question is how are Vanguard and SnG willing to compromise on this issue until Zul'Aman comes out?
I know strong opinions have been expressed already, but there has been a lot of information back and forth in this thread in the last 24-hours, and perhaps, opinions have modified. I know it is hard at times, but try to keep emotion out of it. Remember that this proposal was put forward in a spirit of friendship and inclusion with an invitation for dialogue. It wasn't done behind anybody's back. It won't be forced on anyone. These are the types of things that has made Ironsong a special group for a long time. I don't believe that any of us want to lose that.
-Jaba
Another idea, that's sort of percolated through from a bunch of people, is to start up a fourth IST raid.
Learning Raid:
The goal of the raid, held over 2 evenings (3 maybe?) would be to take a few of the regular Kara raiders (on a strictly volunteer basis), or their alts, and then match them up with folks that want to get into Kara. Their experience and gear can help ease the learning curve a bit, and the process would grow itself as more people got geared up and experienced.
I know a lot of us have our main character, but other 70's. For me, I've got Logros who's in a group that he won't be leaving, but I could also get Bendon (rogue) keyed and help out with the Learning Raid. My paladin (60 and leveling) will eventually most likely be Prot, and so will be able to off-tank (maybe MT eventually).
If a handful of us that raid Kara regularly leveled up tanks/healers, we could get a lot more people involved in raiding that way, and it'd preserve the current groups completely (although alternates for those groups as need be will always happen).
I have only been with IST a short time compared to most but I will throw in my two cents.
I transfered to Silver Hand from a PvP server to play with my roommate Adam(Greyfith) and his boss Lisa(Mahiah =P, who I met way back when DAoC was first released). I was in the some of the top Horde raiding guilds and progressed content wise to 2 of the 4 wings in Naxx. I'm a raider and I like my epics but I enjoy the progression, seeing new places and defeating new foes more. I am not always the most patient of people(if you raid with me I usually do not wait for people and pull at my own pace) and have limited raiding time due to me not being able to keep Willy down =P. I have gone from raiding 4-6 days a week down to 2-3(I got somewhat of a life =P).
I personally think abolishing the 3 Kara groups and using a sign up process is a bad idea. BC raiding is a totally different beast than pre BC raiding. With 40 man raids you could have a solid core of 20-25 people and rotate in 15-20 people and progress. Sure you may have a few bad attempts at bosses but the core would hold it together. With 10 man raids you need all 10 people paying attention and prepared gear wise to progress with success. With 25 man raids it is the same thing but you need at least 20-23 prepared people with very limmited "fill".
I have tried to rotate people into the raid but as it has been stated a few times previous it is hard to find people and we end up getting someone out of guild or run short. Hell, the past few Tuesdays I have run 2 accounts on my machine(its a beast) and have MT'd with Eatmore and healed with Azazzel. We have even made arrangements to have people come in place of a regular only to find out that they forgot, made other arrangements or just plain didn't show up.
The only reason I still goto Kara is to spent time with the people I met in Vanguard as they are all my "online disfunctional family" and to help them get what they need so we can steadily progress further into SSC and TE. As I stated earlier I have no issues bringing in new people, meeting new people, becoming close friends with them as I have with the rest of Vanguard but those people need to show up or be available when the rest of the groups raid.
That being said if the groups do get abolished I will more than likely not regularly participate in IST Kara runs as I have put alot of hours into it learning it and myself not being a very patient individual would get frustrated relearning everything I have already worked hard to achieve.
Thats my rant. If you have any issues with what I said just let me know, I do not want to burn any bridges or upset the masses.
Actually, the more I chew on the idea of the Learning Raid, the more I like it. All it would take would be a small handful of us that would be willing to play tanks/healers. I'd be happy to tank with Dromand once he's capable of it. Once we had that little core group that we could swap around as people's availability demanded, we could have a lot of new folks filter in in bunches. We'd progress slowly to be sure, but it'd be challenging
It'd also let our bored 70's contribute to progression as a whole - helping level the tanks/healers, doing elite quests with folks, etc. Could be a lot of fun, imo, and it'd certainly go a long way towards Tribal cooperation and such.