The Ironsong Tribe

I'm just going to chime in on those of you who are poo-pooing moots.

Officers and many players go to great lengths to prepare for most moots. Sometimes they move slowly...sometimes they move along faster. Sometimes we have long agendas...sometimes shorter ones.

No one has ever asked anyone to come sit and be bored for 2 hours. Likewise it's not always the job of the officers to keep you entertained.

The moots are a social outlet and an important part of the tribe. Those of you who do not know others can get to know them at the moots. They are a fine place to RP or even to chat in whispers ooc to some folk you don't get to see often.

I'm not going to glamorize them...but you all did join a tribe. Stopping by a moot for 15 minutes is not alot to ask. Sometimes we prepare entire rp events to run at a moot...I write songs...some people present stories and poems. Nothing makes me feel worse than preparing something grande...and then seeing 1/2 the tribe out in instances and generally just ignoring the moot times.

The moots are what YOU as a tribe make of them. With low attendance they become less fun. I am frankly upset when I, as an officer, have to go to GC and beg people to come to a moot. A part of what this thread has brought up have been communication and bonding issues...many of which are assisted by people just coming to moots.

As an officer...you probably don't know the sheer number of tells we get behind the scenes at a moot. Sometimes officers are busy talking to 2-3 players at once...screening new members...talking over things in our officer channel...and we do all of this to help YOU and to help provide a positive arena for everyone to enjoy the game in. So much goes on that many of you never see. If it takes us 10 minutes to address something and things seem boring, then try chatting with the person sitting to your left. Try getting to know each other. We appreciate it when players do not send excessive things in "say" so things do not become too chaotic...but it's not always about us entertaining you.

The moots are there for everyone to get to know each other...chat about goals and things they need to do....maybe ask for an enchant while all enchanters are around...and just are there to be used for COMMUNICATION.

I can't force anyone to come...but please stay away from telling others moots are "boring." They are not always. Moots are there for you and they are what we all make of them as a tribe.

-=((D))=-

Ok, aside from all other issues brought up that should be taken to my other post….i have a few things about 10man raiding…

I have seen some things here that do bother me…about the 10-man raiding…for those who have multiple chars in one or more groups, am sorry...there are those who have just one main that really do want to join in…so why not let them? Is it wrong for them to state hay I have been keyed now and how can I get in? I’m sorry but that came across as very demeaning when told for them to be patient.

But yes, I do see groups rotating members in when possible and do agree that we need another system as what Kosath proposed originally. And some of the other ideas that have been stated.

How about they way Kosath used to do the Zul groups? Those who were able to go…showed up…ON TIME…if in as needed, were in but those who did not could be in next time or in the next group…

Yes I know that this is not a perfect answer but am trying to think of fairness.

Dispaya Wrote:I'm just going to chime in on those of you who are poo-pooing moots.

Well, since I am the only one poo-pooing, I guess I'll take that as a response to my poo-poo.

Dispaya Wrote:Officers and many players go to great lengths to prepare for most moots. Sometimes they move slowly...sometimes they move along faster. Sometimes we have long agendas...sometimes shorter ones.

I know that, which is why I edited my original statement and even later withdrew my statement entirely. I know it takes a lot of work and I know the moots are very special to many members of the tribe. I'm very sorry if I offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention.

Dispaya Wrote:No one has ever asked anyone to come sit and be bored for 2 hours. Likewise it's not always the job of the officers to keep you entertained.

The moots are a social outlet and an important part of the tribe. Those of you who do not know others can get to know them at the moots. They are a fine place to RP or even to chat in whispers ooc to some folk you don't get to see often.

I'm not going to glamorize them...but you all did join a tribe. Stopping by a moot for 15 minutes is not alot to ask. Sometimes we prepare entire rp events to run at a moot...I write songs...some people present stories and poems. Nothing makes me feel worse than preparing something grande...and then seeing 1/2 the tribe out in instances and generally just ignoring the moot times.

To me, a tribe entails a shared community. The current hierarchical format of officers in front, everyone else sitting and watching/listening creates separation, not unity. What about meeting in a circle instead? What about some kind of shared ritual to open and close the moots, like passing a peace pipe or giving praise to the Earth Mother? Maybe the Shamans of the Tribe could clear the space and make it sacred?

Dispaya Wrote:The moots are what YOU as a tribe make of them. With low attendance they become less fun. I am frankly upset when I, as an officer, have to go to GC and beg people to come to a moot. A part of what this thread has brought up have been communication and bonding issues...many of which are assisted by people just coming to moots.

I'm sorry, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think GC is one of the biggest sources of the problem. Never once during a moot have I logged in and had someone greet me in GC or invite me to come to the moot. My experience is usually that I have to take 15 minutes getting to the meeting place, because I had no idea where it was going to be held. If I'm lucky, there's a warlock there for a summon. Often, there is not. When I first joined the tribe, I'd literally sneak out of work early and rush home to make the start time. When it became clear no one really cared whether I was there or not I became less willing to do that. Frankly, I find moots to be more alienating than welcoming.

Dispaya Wrote:As an officer...you probably don't know the sheer number of tells we get behind the scenes at a moot. Sometimes officers are busy talking to 2-3 players at once...screening new members...talking over things in our officer channel...and we do all of this to help YOU and to help provide a positive arena for everyone to enjoy the game in. So much goes on that many of you never see. If it takes us 10 minutes to address something and things seem boring, then try chatting with the person sitting to your left. Try getting to know each other. We appreciate it when players do not send excessive things in "say" so things do not become too chaotic...but it's not always about us entertaining you.

This is probably a big part of what I'm experiencing. There's a lot of dead time as we wait for things to happen. I'm relatively new to the tribe, and I haven't been the most active participant at moots, but I find it very frustrating to spend an hour or more waiting to get through material that could be covered in 10-15 minutes. If this is because officers are busy chatting privately, maybe private communication should be held to the end of the meeting? Your job may not be to entertain us, but we are a captive audience. If I try to fill the down time with non-moot related ooc chat, it just pulls my attention further away from what's going on. If I roleplay, my emotes and /say clutter up the main discussions and further distract me from the business at hand. Besides, I always figured the polite thing to do was to sit quietly and listen.

Dispaya Wrote:I can't force anyone to come...but please stay away from telling others moots are "boring." They are not always. Moots are there for you and they are what we all make of them as a tribe.

This is certainly true, and I genuinely love your songs. That to me is a wonderful aspect of the moots, and I don't mean to denigrate that. It's the other stuff that bugs me.

I guess what it boils down to for me is that a meeting like this with so many people should flow more smoothly than it does. Whoever is leading the meeting should be focused on that and not handling guild politics behind the scenes or trying to figure out what to say/do next. Someone suggested earlier that copy and paste might be used to good effect. I agree with that. Make and publish a meeting agenda in advance. Announce the locations of the moots a couple days in advance of the meeting so we can logout in the right place. As officers, take the lead in greeting members when they come online and making them feel welcome. And not just the people you like, but everyone.

Perhaps we can discuss moots and their dwindling attendance in another thread, this is taking the focus off of the discussion.

Further discussion of Moots in this thread is off-topic, aye. Create a thread elsewhere to discuss it further if you wish.

Shillatae Wrote:Further discussion of Moots in this thread is off-topic, aye. Create a thread elsewhere to discuss it further if you wish.

Understood. Thread moved here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.ironsongtribe.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3034">viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3034</a><!-- l -->.

Nicorah Wrote:How about they way Kosath used to do the Zul groups? Those who were able to go…showed up…ON TIME…if in as needed, were in but those who did not could be in next time or in the next group…

Yes I know that this is not a perfect answer but am trying to think of fairness.

Personally, I am very, very against the idea.

Back when I was first trying to join the Tribe, I came week after week to MC in the hopes of getting into a raid. I showed up early, hung around chatting with folks, and never, ever got invited. I think I gave up after 5 tries, and it left a really bitter taste for a long time. I can't remember who it was, but every week I was told that I should do the same thing, the raid leader knew I was "on the list" for folks that could go, and it never happened. That's not an experience I'd want any Tribemate to go through again, and definitely not a potential Tribemate.

*edited to remove attempted humour that didn't translate well*

Logros Wrote:Personally, I could not be more against that idea if it involved coming to my house and hitting me in the groin. With a truck. Filled with molten lava. With clowns dancing on top.

Back when I was first trying to join the Tribe, I came week after week to MC in the hopes of getting into a raid. I showed up early, hung around chatting with folks, and never, ever got invited. I think I gave up after 5 tries, and it left a really bitter taste for a long time. I can't remember who it was, but every week I was told that I should do the same thing, the raid leader knew I was "on the list" for folks that could go, and it never happened. That's not an experience I'd want any Tribemate to go through again, and definitely not a potential Tribemate.

Logros, I'm guessing there's some distortion in this, possibly because you say you were trying to join at the time and weren't actually a member yet. It was also MC,and many Tribemates asked us to always make sure we took members of grunt and higher rank first, followed by peons, then applicants. I imagine as a grunt now, you would support such a policy yourself.

Regardless, rehashing old grievances is not what this is about, and that ridiculous metaphor is unnecesarily negative in a discussion that has become largely constructive. We are looking for positive solutions here.

Kosath Wrote:Logros, I'm guessing there's some distortion in this, possibly because you say you were trying to join at the time and weren't actually a member yet.

None. I was told that I'd be on the list, because of wanting to be a member. I don't hold a grudge about it or anything at all, I'm just sharing it because I can very easily see a similar thing happening to potential raid members who aren't guildmates. I'd imagine that we'd take IST members before out-of-guild raiders, and that would make their experience pretty much identical to mine.

Quote:Regardless, rehashing old grievances is not what this is about

I'm only bringing it up because it's directly applicable to a suggestion that was made. Having people come prepared at a given time and then not get invited, regardless of reason, is a bad experience for them. I don't want someone else to have that same grievance.

Quote:and that ridiculous metaphor is unnecesarily negative in a discussion that has become largely constructive. We are looking for positive solutions here.

So is calling my metaphor ridiculous, especially given that it's intent is to be humourous. I've offered up the idea of a Learning Raid, even offering to level my paladin agressively to help lead it (and nobody's commented on the idea at all, officers included). I'm suggesting we use a Need X People list, and contributing to that part of the discussion. As you've said, please give me a little credit.

Logros Wrote:Back when I was first trying to join the Tribe, I came week after week to MC in the hopes of getting into a raid. I showed up early, hung around chatting with folks, and never, ever got invited. I think I gave up after 5 tries, and it left a really bitter taste for a long time. I can't remember who it was, but every week I was told that I should do the same thing, the raid leader knew I was "on the list" for folks that could go, and it never happened. That's not an experience I'd want any Tribemate to go through again, and definitely not a potential Tribemate.

What is the difference between this and being flatly denied access to Karazhan because we're not someone's close friend? Thankfully, I have been invited, and I appreciate that I've been rotated in. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for others. I see no difference in the past situation, except maybe that now you are being included. I don't mean to get bitchy, but I have been terribly offended by a lot of this talk. In short, I am being told that I *am* chopped liver and people would rather do without. I understand that you enjoy your close friendships and your ability to do an instance, but the fact of the matter is that it stops being a guild run when you stop allowing guild members to go.

Takeena Wrote:What is the difference between this and being flatly denied access to Karazhan because we're not someone's close friend?

Not a lot, other than not having to wait at the instance That's why this is a good discussion. Nobody wants Tribemates to feel that way.

Quote:I don't mean to get bitchy, but I have been terribly offended by a lot of this talk.

Speaking only for myself, I hope folks don't get offended. In a situation like this were there's some strong emotions going on, it's perhaps inevitable Some of what I, and others, have to say is negative. We're not saying it for the purpose of being negative, we're saying it so that we can use it to build on the idea and improve things for everyone.

As Kosath stated, MC at that time had a specific order of inviting that the Tribe at the time chose to do. I have been in that position Logros and Takeena. It was part of the Tribe. Many others have as well. After all look at how many members are we at now.

The runs there were for IST ONLY...no ifs and or butts. And you had to work at getting them. Even when I was first accepted into MC I did not always get in either. Same with Zul'g.

But that doenst mean that the system for those two events didnt work at that time. It also doesnt mean that it would work now either.

But come on people... we are mature members, trying to constructively and positively work out a new system for the smaller raiding instances. Lets give the officers and leading memebers some credit here. After all, if it was not for their work...there would be no raiding in the tribe....period!

So please, show some respect and thoughtfulness here as we work this new possible system out.

Nicorah Wrote:But come on people... we are mature members, trying to constructively and positively work out a new system for the smaller raiding instances. Lets give the officers and leading memebers some credit here. After all, if it was not for their work...there would be no raiding in the tribe....period!

So please, show some respect and thoughtfulness here as we work this new possible system out.

If my intent wasn't clear, then I apologize for that. I'm opposed to the idea because it will lead to others feeling the same way I did back then. Nobody wants to be the kid that's picked last for the team.

The only reason I brought up the MC example is because that method was suggested. If we invite folks to show up somewhere, then pick people from that pool, then folks are going to be left out, guaranteed. Guildmates too, if we have more than we need show up. OOG-raiders will be even more likely to have that happen, and that's going to make them much less likely to want to help us out in Karazhan in the future.

Either of the list ideas will avoid that, and imo, that's a really, really important thing to avoid, having been there.

I agree with Logros here. I felt very left out in those MC days. I used to count the number of 60s on those nights and if it went over 40, I knew I wasn't going to make it in. Half of the time, 10 of those 40 were warriors too >.<

OK, so I've been reading all these posts and I think my eyes have begun to bleed....

If I am mistaken in what I am interpreting that you are saying Logros, please excuse me, as my brain has a tendency to allow all this information to kind of meld together.

You are hoping that we institute some sort of list that would be established before hand where Tribe members can sign up for specific spots as a way to prevent what had happened to most of us at some point in the past; that being showing up for a raid well in advance, and then finding out that the raid was filled without you.

My statement is, what about the situations that arise where Team A would post needing 3 spots filled for a Friday night run, and then having 7 people respond that they are available. How would this situation be handled? Would we look at gear? Previous raiding experience? Give preference to those that had yet to go? Or by the first ones to sign up?

Personally, I can imagine there will be individuals who would argue about each and every one of those options.

This is not meant as a flame, just a thinking point. Hope I don't offend....