10-man Raiding Proposal, Open Discussion

[Guest]

Those extra raiding slots you can't fill... do you guys honestly think people check those mini-group forums every week? I sure don't. Find a way to make that more available.

I check all the forums near daily, actually, but my apologies for a clearly incorrect assumption. And make it more available than posting on the forums, asking in ISTLFG, and asking in guild? I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but what exactly do you want us to do here, Kosath? I like the idea Waka presented of having a forum or thread specifically for the purpose of alternates and posting available slots -- do you mean something like that? Or...?

And that small-group family feel you've come to love... I can't possibly be the only person who had (and still has) that feeling with MORE than 9-12 others. Find a solution that gets you grouping with more people while maintaining your current friendships. That is what I'm looking for here.

Okay. I understand that is what you're looking for. Do you understand that is it -not- what I'm looking for? Maybe you do understand the connection we have, and maybe you do have it with more than the 10-15 people we do. But I can’t imagine that truly being so, because neither I nor just about anyone else who is in our team has ever seen or felt anything quite like this connection before. We do rotate in a large number of people, and for me, that's enough. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with how I feel about this. I want the core group of people who are the reason I raid to be in my raid, otherwise, there's no point in me raiding.

And where did this "forming a fourth Karazhan group" nonsense come from? When did I say that? I don't know that we have enough healers and tanks for it either. I'd be happy if even the 3 existing groups mixed players more and brought in more new blood. That's what I'm going for.

The idea for the fourth group, I believe, came from the continual implication that there is a large or at least moderate number of people within the tribe who are interested in raiding Karazhan yet unable to presently participate due to scheduling conflicts. I know of a few, off hand, but as I have said already, their schedules simply do not mesh with mine and several others' in Smash and Grab, so even if this merging plan was to be implemented, we'd still not be raiding with them for that reason alone.

I see it more as sitting around playing cards, watching TV or whatever with a group of friends ... with a lot of cursing and swearing and stealing aggro.

Most of Smash and Grab doesn't need *anything* from Karazhan but they go each week because they like being with each other. It wasn't about the Tribe. It was about having fun with friends.

The Tribe has no authority or place trying to mess with that.

No.

This is perhaps a better summation of my feelings on the subject than I could ever have had to cohesion to say. It is, more than anything else to me, a social gathering of very dear friends being wacky together on Friday nights, and having someone say, "No, you can't spend time with this person, you have to do it with that person" just doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Oryx]

We all love this game; that's obvious by the level of energy and emotion that is visible here. And we love it because it's something that brings us together as people, as a team. I love being part of a raid team! The Entourage runs are a high point of my week -- even if we wipe for three hours, it's a blast. As Anathamon says, this is the weekly card game for our generation.

The absolute truth, once you reach the end of the level 70 quests and instances, is that we NEED each other to play it -- WoW simply cannot be played alone, and once you get past the level 70 instances, it requires the weekly attention of nine other people to play at all. And if you don't have that, you really can't play.

Abnd all of us here have also chosen to be part of a guild -- a voluntary collection of players, bound by interest and affection, for the good of us all. Our trust for each other and our experience together makes us greater together than the sum of our parts.

But we do not limit membership to the guild to round multiples of ten!! And so we have any number of people who feel they don't belong, don't share the pleasures of the majority, and for all intents and purposes, are in a very, very, small guild. Maybe you don't see it, but I do -- the players that recently dinged 70 with their first character, and haven't been in an instance, and can't even do world content, because most of their guild is passionately involved in the intricacies of raid content and the intense social bonds that result. Raiding is DESIGNED to cause intense social bonds, and we need to be aware of that as members of a guild!

What's clear to me is that the intense pleasure of raiding with a group of friends, and the isolation -- of both new 70s and some very old guildmates -- who aren't in a team, are two sides of the SAME COIN. They are inextricable.


Last year, Ironsong had a kind of magic. We took a game that was designed to encourage divisiveness, "us vs. them", competitive thinking, and we turned it into a tool for community-building. It wasn't free -- we didn't progress as quickly, we admitted strangers, we had frustrations, and we had to deal with the occasional freeloader -- but it was also incredibly powerful. It was amazing, and unique on our server, and it meant that we were all part of something much bigger than ourselves.





Anyway, practicalities:

There are good arguments to be made: a deeper team helps the guild over the long term. Grouping with many members of the guild builds informal social cohesion. Zul'aman is coming, and it will pull the fully-geared teams forward while leaving a chasm for the players who didn't fit into a team. But, mainly: we are not a group of three 10-man guilds. We are Ironsong!

I think Jaba has some excellent ideas, and Wakaraina as well. Rotation facilitation, at a minimum, with guild channel support, would be a positive step. We may also find that with the people we have, we could field more teams on more nights, as well (Zlinka and I, for example, could raid any night, but can never do afternoons; the weekly raid lockout makes team construction tricky). A transparent process will bring people out of the woodwork who would never post in this thread, and knit new members into the fabric of the guild.

[Fleethoof]

Great input so far folks, thanks. I just want to reinforce, again, that is is a discussion; it's not some mandate being passed down and enforced with the Hammer of Judgment. Let's keep focused on discussing the merits and flaws of the plan and coming up with alternatives.

It wasn't about the Tribe. It was about having fun with friends.

The Tribe has no authority or place trying to mess with that.

No.

There's no way we could! I mean, unless you expect us to fly to your houses and unplug your machines if we see you online together. ; )

Our goal as officers here is not to come in and tear you from the embrace of your friends and put you slavishly to work for the advancement of n00bs. We want to find a way for the folks who can't get into a raid to be able to participate. If you have any other suggestions on how we can do that, please share them. Help us brainstorm! If there's a better way, we want to hear it.

For the officers, it is about the tribe- about you guys- and always will be.

[Efluvious]

. Additionally, as several others have pointed out, there have been numerous requests for aid in Khara from the established groups. It appears to me that a makeshift rotation system already exists. We just have too many people in the Tribe right now for the number of raiding groups established.

*is going to be frank, and is coming from a warrior* One thing I have noticed about those wanting to come to Kharazan but do not have an established group is their spec. they are almost always (with the exception of Wakaraina and possibly one other) a dps class that could perform another role, but chooses not to. We have never been about forcing someone to play a certain role, but if 90% of the people want to dps, well, sorry folks. 10 man group composition doesn't allow that.

Efluvious was a fury warrior (and I love being fury) for a long time. I changed to prot when needed preBC, and was exclusively prot up until we started Gruul's lair after hitting 70. Despite loving dpsing as a warrior, I feel the same as Damoxian on this point. They don't have many uses. Enhancement shammies are in much the same boat, as are cat druids. This is not to say they will never have a spot as that spec.

But I think we have to get it out of our heads what MC was like, at least in some aspects. Things have radically changed. Back then you could tank as fury (heh try that on nightbane). We have to be able to sacrifice our desired spec sometimes. Shantow has shown this to me the best. He wants to boomkin and has for a long time, but was willing to bear tank for SnG for months to fulfill that role and get the gear required for being a boomkin.

I respec twice a week to make it to Gruul (and sometimes group composition is such that I need to bring Grommash anyway). Last week I spent 250g on respecs. I don't like it, but I am willing to sacrifice for the needs of the group at hand. My point is this: if you REALLY want to do 10man content and you CAN fulfill a different role, you should be WILLING when it comes up. If you need advice for different spec's, ask around! We are a tribe, and will help out. I wish blizzard didn't make it so expensive to respec since it is more needed now, but there you have it.

[Shillatae]

Some of this is getting borderline so I'd like to remind people as I generally do that our first rule is respect. Ironsong is founded on respect and inclusiveness - getting as many people as possible to have fun together. Folks come and go of course, we've had plenty leave under good terms and maintain ties with the Tribe and we have new members on a fairly regular basis.

The current situation, partly because of Blizz partly because of us (meaning the existing membership as a whole), is that new members get left in the cold. That needs to change. One way or another it will change. It's not Ironsong for that to be happening to the extent that it is. Posts here should contribute constructively to the discussion of how that will be accomplished.

That said, I concur with Damoxian and Kosath that roleplay needs to be fostered. I've been incredibly frustrated with my situation since TBC was launched (computer failure, understaffed job, deaths in the family) as it has kept me far less involved in the Tribe than I would like. Fortunately as a few might have noticed that is gradually improving again (new computer, promotion, more weddings than funerals for a few months). I exhort everyone reading this to at least consider brainstorming some ideas for an RP event. So few people ever have! Maybe 5-10% of Ironsong is above the rank of Grunt when it's an automatic promotion to Iron-singer if you run RP events, sometimes even just one!

This is not unrelated to the issue at hand either - fostering better community ties within the Tribe is vital, especially if you rarely spend time with folks outside your regular instance circle. I'm going to see about clearing Thursday nights in my new position at work so we can revitalize the Moots. I know we've had a few really good ones recently and we can build on that as well.

Frankly, if you aren't interested in grouping with more than a handful of your Tribemates you are doing /yourself/ an injustice. We have a lot of damn cool people.


Shillatae

[Efluvious]

Okay, so we've had some good discussion. I, despite feeling they way Naruth does, still want this to happen, at least to some extent. My first post still stands! I want to include as many people as I can. I think I'll expand on what I said about Zul'aman a bit more.

More than half of SnG is done with Kharazan. It is that simple. They come to be with friends. I want to move that to Zul'aman and have Kharazan be a tribe thing. I REALLY honestly want to group with others and get to know them better! Its what not only being in a guild is about, but its why we have RL moots too, (which i am looking forward to immensely, despite only being able to stay a day and a half).

I understand what Naruth, Vanea and others (some who have not posted) are saying and if they don't want to participate, thats okay. There's nothing wrong with it, and you shouldn't feel pressured to do it. I think if we do this, BOTH sides will be happy (i.e. move SnG/Vanguard to Zul'aman, reorganize Kharazan raiding) I for one would like to do both, because I *do* feel a close bond with SnG and yet I also do want to help out and at least get aquainted with some of the newer members of the tribe and those existing members that I never really have known.

This includes members of Vanguard as well. I want to group with you more. For raiding purposes alone I want to get a feel for how each of you play and then can gauge more accurately how things will go in the 25-man content, and who would do well in certain roles. Kosath wants the same thing I believe. He and I have tanked together a total of 4-5 times, all of them on the azeroth raiding nights. I don't think I've ever grouped with Fleethoof at all as a tank.

As for how Kharazan will be organized, Kosath has put forward an IDEA of how it could go, as have Jabadue and Waka, all of them good ideas. Like I said before, bugs will need to be worked through, and new methods are hard to pick up at first, but overall this will be a very good thing!

[jabadue]

Really. Seriously. Jaba is all about the *epix*...And that goes for Neat and Sbin too.

I have a couple of concrete proposals that might help us move forward.

1. Create a new Karazhan rading subforum where Absentees and substitutes for existing raids can be communicated. Look at the small groups' forums to get an idea of how we have been posting this. This would just centralize the process.
2. Have a sticky on this same forum that lists the small groups' composition. I am thinking this would consist of mains, their class, and spec. Also, list on this sticky, people who are keyed, their class, and their spec. This could include alts, which should be indentified.
3. If people really want to get to know each other outside of the small groups better (I think this is a worthwhile goal), then, participate in things like the Weds. night Outland quest and instance assistance event. I know Sound ran a similar event for awhile that eventually fizzled out through no fault of hers. Kosath and other officers have recently tried to resurrect this, but the participation has been less than enthusiastic. In my opinion, this is a perfect opportunity for us all to group together, do that instance we have been wanting to do for awhile, get keyed, go to heroics, and get to know each other better. This would also allow us to become familiar with each other in an instance as a warm-up for Karazhan, and future content. All it would take is for members to reserve that night to group with other, perhaps less familiar, tribe members, and to work through the leaders of the event for that one night to find groups. This might take the pressure off of finding groups for many, and allow us to establish new friendships, and reconect with old friends. (BTW I am willing to help organize. Again, a forum to facilitate planning of this event would be helpful, like where to people want or need to go.)

We could try these things for awhile and see how it goes. Say evaluate the situation after a month of solid effort at these changes.

A couple of ideas that would be harder to do, but maybe...
4. Try to get a fourth raid going at a time that does not conflict with the existing raids. If people are willing to respec and group with some alts, we might make this happen. Having an up-to-date list of those available would help.
5. Have a voluntary rotation for limited periods of time for existing raids. This might not help the new folks as much, but would mix the current groups to a limited degree. Like I said, I am not exactly sure how this would work, or what kind of support there would be for it. I echo Efluvious about grouping with people in Entourage and Vanguard. I miss you guys. Maybe a sign-up for voluntary rotations.

-Jaba

[Krell]

OK, I'm going to try this again....as my first post disappeared into the nether.

I must say that this thread certainly carries alot of emotion with it. I would ask that each of us try to read one another's posts with an open mind, as the intention of this thread appears to me to be an effort to get more Tribemates involved in game content.

First of all, let me say that I am a member of Team SnG. I am proud to be a member of this team and gleefully look forward to TUES and FRI nights. I don't feel this is a bad thing for me, our group, or the Tribe as a whole. However, I can also see the other side of this situation, and can agree that something needs to be done to remedy it.

Does this mean that each of the existing raid groups should be summarily disbanded and filtered into a pot to be distributed each week into different raid groups? Nope, I think it can be done in a slightly different way. But, I will say this, I think there will need to be at least a measure of willingness to help out by us. So, I have an idea that may be acceptable, and may possibly even work in some for or another.

What about a situation where we create a list of willing and able Tribemates, and then sub a couple members out from each of the existing groups to create a 4th, or perhaps even 5th raid group each week. This would allow the existing groups to continue (for the most part) as they have been, and would allow a couple new people to be subbed into their raids in the spots of the vacating members. So, the existing teams take a couple new people each week (which, we seem to be doing to a limited extent now) and those people hopefully will see the majority of the content, as well as learn the encounters so that they can share what tey have learned with the other groups as they get moved around from week to week. In return, the members from the existing teams that would be filtered into the other raids will be able to share their experience and knowledge of certain pulls in an effort to lessen the learning curve.

One thing I would certainly request is, that under this system, that the existing teams be given one week a month where we can run as a "whole" unit. And perhaps, for that one week a raid can be formed with the remaining Tribemates that could head into Karazhan and try to tackle the instance on their own?

All this aside, I have thoroughly enjoyed my times with SnG. They are a special group of people who I've had the pleasure of running with. I mean, where else could you see Krell strip down to his tabard and charge the final Flesh Beast before the Prince? SnG, thats where! And, where else could you learn that the PoKrell will sometimes use a wall to stop his forward progress....Team SnG! Thats where!

I would like to comment on Efluvious' previos comment regarding Shantow. To me, it just makes sense to offer whatever I can to the success of the raid. In fact, I will most likely be respeccing Shantow back and forth in an effort to off-tank Kara so that others can attend and not feel forced to play a certain class.

OK, so we've established that I love Team SnG....right? Now, while I would prefer to continue on with the status quo, I can see the wisdom with allowing more Tribemates to enter Karazhan. From a raiding perspective (and yes, I know...we're not a raiding guild) it gives us a larger pool of better geared individuals to pull from in our attempts to defeat Gruul and Magtheridon.

But, it will also allow us to team up with other Tribe members on a regular basis, because, who knows....we might find another person that's just as cooky as we are.

Efluvious also mentioned the coming of Zul'Aman and I look forward to that, and hope to be a part of it. However, in the meantime, perhaps we can all band together and get more of us into Karazhan for the time being, and maybe by the time ZA is active, some of us can move forward to that, while the rest remain in Karazhan and continue to master that?

I dont know if any of this makes sense, perhaps someone can glean a few tidbits from all this and make something work.

Ultimately, it's important to remember that the solution will not satisfy each of us completely, but perhaps if we each give in a little bit, we can arrive at a place where the majority of us are.

[Kosath]

Thank you for a constructive post Krell. I think it illustrates what we're trying to get across: There is a problem in the Tribe and we need to fix it. Things cannot stay exactly as they are.

Many of you keep referring to an "implication" that there are a large number of people who can't get into Karazhan, as if we're making this up. This doesn't entirely have to do with Karazhan, it has to do with grouping in general, and I can tell you that we as officers hear from a lot of these people. I can count 8 off the top of my head, but you should understand that part of the reason you aren't seeing them, is that they have slowly stopped playing all together. That includes at least one officer. Oryx put it best: If you can't group at 70th, you can't do anything.

THAT is the problem we're trying to remedy, and yes, it does mean several of you need to make some compromises and step out of your comfort zone...what we are discussing is how far.

The current groups need to adjust in some way to include newer people because, quite honestly, Anathamon illustrates it best: It wasn't about the Tribe.

And on a personal note, I need those of you on the cliqueish side of this to consider something: I am likely cancelling my plans to attend the west coast moot based on this. Many of the attitudes expressed here have made me, a founding member of this guild, feel that I would be an invasive outsider among a group of Tribemates. How do you imagine that attitude makes our new-to-70 members feel?

[Zeengo]

I must say I can see both sides of this debate and I do completely understand why it is being asked. But what I do not understand is how we are going to implement this. I think the best and most rational way I have seen it laid out so far is jaba's interpretation of it, which I would stand behind if that is how we would go. But to completely tear down what has already been established on the crucible of bringing more people to the fold I can not stand by. I like nihilism as much as any other guy, but simple stated it took a hell of a lot of work and dealing with a lot of frustration for those that are there now to get there. To be asked to give up almost all that we had achieved just so some others could get in is borderline insulting. Not that I do not mind switching people out, I am not saying that at all. But we should not smash the groups we have created thus far just to get better rotation. If we want more rotation, then we should add more rotation. There is no reason to break what has been established quite yet.

That also being said, with the advent of ZA coming soon, it could be another thing for those established teams to tackle. In that notion we would also no longer need kara (as most of us do not now) but it would be a chance for those that have not seen it before to get in with those that have. Of course that still leaves those people behind in content which is not something we all want to so, but it is one of the more painless ways I would see of getting it done.

But when this all started, it was just a few people getting together to do raids in an RP group. What changed that all of a sudden we are now more interested in the content then the RP? Aside from the absolutely abysmal storyline that they brought outland in under. This is part of the reason why gho and I are starting the story line that we are, we have been stretched to far beyond the RP line that we need something back in this world to think of.

So quick synopsis) I don't oppose getting more people involved in karazhan, under the parameters that we already run. But I do see more rotation needed, so that more people can get involved.

[Efluvious]

And on a personal note, I need those of you on the cliqueish side of this to consider something: I am likely cancelling my plans to attend the west coast moot based on this. Many of the attitudes expressed here have made me, a founding member of this guild, feel that I would be an invasive outsider among a group of Tribemates. How do you imagine that attitude makes our new-to-70 members feel?

I hope you don't cancel your plans Kosath. I was looking forward to meeting you and as many others that can make it as possible.

[Efluvious]

Alright. I already skipped my first class to keep up on this. I *can't* miss the rest of em. Remember, keep the communication open and clear. We can work through this to the benefit of all involved I believe.

[Efluvious]

Alright, never mind. My car won't start. -_-

[Guest]

do you guys honestly think people check those mini-group forums every week?

Not even remotely part of the conversation and barely more than a forum troll at this point, but the "View new posts" link is the most luverly thing ever. I don't think I've ever actually navigated through the forums.

[Guest]

I went to class for you, Efluvious!

On a serious note, the feeling of isolation when joining the Tribe is not a new one. When I joined nearly two years ago, I found it hard to find people to chat or RP with, much less to help me with in-game goals. This was especially surprising to me since I'm related to some of the founding members.

Anyway, I'm not sure that simple raiding is enough to solve this problem. The RP events that Gholjan/Zeengo, Dispaya, Cloudjumper, Sreng and many others have started are useful for this. I would like to see alt-night and Ironsong Instance night more successful before we really expect to get Khara going for real. (I doubt that Mellith is currently geared correctly for Kharazan, and I can't accomplish that alone.)

In any case, these events and smaller instances are a great way to forge the relationships that turn into something as powerful as what these Kharazan groups have created. I support the idea of rotating other players in when core members are absent, but I'm not sure that's really the best way to foster community, if that's the main goal of this thread.