10-man Raiding Proposal, Open Discussion

[Takeena]

I would love to regularly go to Karazhan and I am not claimed by any of the three groups.

[jabadue]

To be honest, I am in it for the *epix*...jk.

The teams have been great for building friendships and a cohesive unit to defeat a difficult instance. Vanea and Naruth have both spoken to the importance of the friends in these small groups. That is a big part of the fun. Another part of the fun is winning, and for Karazhan, that takes teamwork. There is no doubt that this instance can have a steep learning curve for patchwork or inexperienced groups. I have even noticed that one or two missing members of the original team, or even some members on alts, affects performance. Ironsong is not about raid progression, which is a poilicy I agree with. Nevertheless, if there is not success (multiple wipes, failure to progress for an extended period), then, the raid will tend to fall apart, usually from lack of participation. The smaller "teams" have been successful in this 10-man format, and if changes are made, we should still try to put together a winning strategy for the tribe.

That being said, there are many people in Ironsong, who I consider to be my friends, that I have not been able to raid with in awhile, and I miss that. At the same time, I want to keep raiding with Smash and Grab, and would miss that if it went away. Ah, a dilemma.

So what are we to do. Here are a few ideas (the operative word there is "idea").

1. I think we should generate a list of members (including alts) and guests who are interested in raiding Karazhan. We need to know who wants to go to Kara and is not able to currently. We also need to know if we have the class balance to support more than three raids. I would bet we don't have enough healers. (I see Sreng just posted about this.)
2. Participation in mixing the raids should be voluntary. If folk don't want to switch out of their existing raid, they should have that option.
3. I want to continue to raid with my team. I enjoy their company. I am happy and willing, however, to take Jaba to help out other raids that have not progressed as far as ours. Let me give a for instance. Say Oryx and I switched for a week. He could get the gear that I already have, and I might be able to give the benefit of my experience to another raid. Another for instance: there are times that I cannot make the raid on a particular day. We coordinate this on the forums currently. If the raids are coordinated on a more tribal basis, however, a switch of Jaba and Zeengo might make perfect sense for that week. One more example: People who are not currenlty in one of the raids need to keep an eye on the forums and post to substitute for an absent team member. I know Waka has done this sort of thing in the past. Thus, I think that we can get some of the "mixing" to make us one tribe, while preserving the essential team structure. Perhaps, a radical solution would go too far, but a more moderate and cautious approach might benefit all.
4. Last point is Alts. There are lots of opportunities if we find the right days to form additional teams composed of alts of current team members and new people. Class balance will be an issue here, but we can probably work that out. Jaba has about all he can get out of Kara, but Neat (my mage) has barely scratched it. Thus, the mains would continue in the original team, while alts fill in spots and provide experience for groups just starting the instance. Tribal coordination of times for this type of thing would help.

Finally, if you will just indulge me, I have some fatherly advice. I may not be the oldest person in the guild, but I have to be close to it. If I have learned one thing, it is that you have to give people a break. This is especially important in a family, like Ironsong. Folk try their best, but will make mistakes. All you can do is do your best, forgive and forget, and move forward. I really believe that this is an honest effort to bring IST together as a tribe, and having a free and open dialog about it is exactly the right approach. If we stick together and trust each other, I think we can work it out.

*exhales having got all those "Father Knows Best" gases out of his system*

Thanks Ironsong,

-Jaba

[Guest]

Oh, Jaba, you always make me feel better. Thank you for being so constant and level-headed, especially when I'm too emotional to be either. <3!

[Damoxian]

First off, I would like to thank Sound for bringing this post to my attention with her usual sense of decorum. The "Damoxian you have to post" didn't get tired after the fifth time I heard it, let me tell you.

Secondly, this will be me airing a lot of things out that have been brought to my attention about my raiding style in general

So we have the roster idea. For good or for Ill. I'll take my perspective on the whole situation. Dissemble and pick apart my comments at will. You probably won't seem making a lot of counterpoints, I rarely like to

1) The roster will for a fact break some players away from Kharazan alltogether. I am a progress oriented individual. I admit this freely and without restraint. I, like most everyone in my raid am not a loot obsessive person. I will complain from time to time about it. Its somewhat natural. But I love tackling new challenges, to me, this is what keeps this game interesting. I know other people like me who also find the thrill of the next adventure to be a narcotic experience when it comes to wow and don't want to slow down or halt progression after a fair amount of blood, sweat and tears have been invested...and even though I finnaly have a 70 Alt, I feel like hes holding other people back when I could be on my main. This is how I see things, like it or not.

2) The Clique issue. I hear about this more often than not through second hand sources. You won't find a great many people who will step up face to face and discuss it in person, for fear of the "Hand of Damoxian" Which exists IC if not really OOC. I'd like to tell a story of how Vanguard came together as to when I led it. We had people in the guild who were ready to step up and try something more than the 5 man instances. Now I love the officers in the tribe who are along side me, but they at the time did not want to step up for this. They were content to level slowly in their own "clique" while some of us were headstrong and wanted more. I took the people who were ready to go...It was an absolute nightmare to find group balance due to the shortfall of people who were willing and who could fit themselves into a time schedule. We failed more times than I cared to mention at first. We took people I did not know well at all

See that top post where I mentioned Sound. I can honestly say I had grouped with her perhaps twice before she came to Kharazan with us.

Zeengo, Gholjan. Never played with them before. Felt about 3 inchest tall when they "defected" to my team after over a month of not being able to have theirs get off the ground ((Sorry Abbru, it was never personal))

Serous. Rotten luck pickup because we needed a Tank.

Eatmore - Who the heck was Eatmore? some guy Mahiah and Greyfith knew...but we needed a second tank

For the love of god there were days we took Vardoth (IF you read this Vardoth...well that time you sulked on vent for not winning loot shot you down forever in our raid)

Now then heres the rub. We are now a Clique. Yes. I won't lie about it, I won't give you the song and dance about it not being so. You spend the majority of your free time with a group of people, talking to them, cracking jokes, learning fights, helping each other with enchants and gathering of mats for your friends (not your) new enchant they want. They are my family within the family of Ironsong (My real family I talk to considerably less these days).


3) I am a person who has a very, very, defined sense of what should be in a group to be successful. Look to the 25 man gruul layer and you'll note it takes forever to form, because in this sense i'm a perfectionist. Vanguard was no different. I knew the types of classes I felt would be a sucess. I got people to respect for sucess and in some cases ((sorry Dannae)) spec back again when we found something that proved more beneficial. This does not endear me to a list Idea. Yes I know what I'm going to be told, that there will be certain types of classes that will be filled and everything will work out easily enough. You'll forgive me if I say I want to see that in practice rather than theory. As a side note - and this will sure irritate a few people. I never found a liking for DPS warriors...just a quirk I thought I'd throw out there. ((Hate mail goes to the inbox folks, not the boards))

4) Believe it or not, I want to include people in these kinds of things. Wait, I can hear the chorus of people chanting out that this is a falsity, that I invite based on things like gear, yeah...your right, I do. I think I mentioned I'm a progress fanatic. I get a lot of grief when I take people in green gear to places like Gruul. I get a lot of grief when I don't take people in green's to Gruul. Hopefully people will notice that I'm trying to be a little less hard core about this since we actually won. I'm a strong believer in putting a strong group in to crush the hard stuff, then trickling everyone else in after once we have the strat down and its entirely more managable. People of late have asked me to go to Kharazan and I know they have to Efluvious as well. And we have tried...honestly to accomidate them as best we are able.

Now I can see the argument that Vanea had about slots not filled even when they are available. I've been there. I can see the other side I'm sure Kosath would bring up. That people arn't there because they don't expect there to be any spots. Vicious cycle that. I can honestly say that Smash and grab has done far more rotation than we have..as my group has been steadier in attendance than theres have been.

Schedule conflicts. Well these can't really be helped at times. Oryx, Zlinka, Wakaraina, Kretol - all people we wanted to see with us more that couldn't make our time tables, I'm glad most of them have found themselves able to sneak in other raids from time to time. This is perhaps the best thing about the list idea, it allows people who have odd hours a chance to snatch some time in a raid instance. My own schedule is weekends only for serious raiding do to my work schedule and one of those days I'm leading some of our larger forays which gives me even less time. Will this work out for me? Maybe, maybe not. I'll probably be less effected than most however, my time in Kharazan has been coming to a close when this topic wasn't even up for discussion.

One thing I will say. I would rather see some peoples mains start getting geared up rather than other peopls alts at this point. I am not a fan of alts..I don't even bring my own around unless its an absolute neccissity in larger raids. Always bothered me that.

Zul Aman = the 500 pound gorilla waiting in the wings. I'm leary of trying this without a strong group given that its a step up from Kharazan, which has little enough tolernce for disorganization as is. I think I said above that I have a real issue with group composistion too. I can't give my stamp of approval on making this a list instance...as i'm more of a prefernce for this post experience than prior.

Other threads of thought.

I will admit that if I had a raid that had to stop on someones account for long stretches of time I would tear my hear out. Fleeties a good person but I'll be a big enough man to admit this..I wouldn't enjoy that in a raid scenario. I'm not big on BSing about things like that you understand...in a 40 man instance on person didn't make or break the raid, 10 mans they can. Just a little open honesty on my end there. Take it as you will.

I can't honestly see Ironsong putting together another 10 man raid. No matter what I'm told I couldn't see it happening. Time tables don't mesh for the right class balances at all for that to be feasable. Every prot tank in the guild has a run they are already on and finding spair healers is like pulling teeth. If you need hunters or enhancement shamans to round you out..look no further however.

Damoxians final interpritation - I can accept the list functionality, I want to see the tribe as a whole get ahead. I can see exactly why people like Vanea and Naruth find it flawed, I like having a family to enjoy in my Tribe.

And one final thought about tribe unity from Damoxian. Events outside of raiding need a bigger spotlight. For a guild thats not about raiding, I hear it as the focus of just about every interaction in the tribe right now. If you want to make a difference...Roleplay. Don't talk about raiding.

Craig.

[Damoxian]

P.S.

I may have rambled a bit and strayed decidedly off topic, send your hate mail to my inbox, lable it plainly as hate mail so I don't discard it like I do most things.

Craig

[Sound]

I've been poked by a few to post here and asked by an officer as well, so I figure I ought to.. As to saying something that hasn't yet been said though and not furthering the rambles of Damoxian the Humble above – I attest here that I’ll try my hardest. And if you don’t; know that I'm coming to this post as another member of Vanguard. There hasn't been much from us yet on this topic because the majority of us are generally forum slackers (our boards should show you this). Hopefully I can help with more input from our side possibly? Maybe? I do know by the time you’ve reached this point we've all read quite a bit however, so my apologies if this inevitably turns out quite long. Gifted with summarizing I am not.

Before you read on, know that it's my general nature to avoid drama best I can. In fact I pretty much hate it. I suck, suck, suck at arguments and I'm basically crap at truly holding one. It never bodes well. As a result I'm often stupidly submissive to taking whatever route I can to quickest fix things for the sake of peace, as temporary as it may be.. And that can backfire. This nature of mine may leave me here with giving the input I've been asked to on a swayed standing which is for the advancement of not having everyone pissed off/upset.. But possibly not really truly fixing anyone's problems on the flip side. And I apologize now.

((The part below is basically for Vanguard members, feel free to skip it. :"> ))
Vanguard, I love you lot. I do. Regardless if as of late I've come to be known as the ice-queen (even if said rigidness helped Saltin get Mongoose, so there. Yes. Thank me now. :p), I won't ever forget these past few months with you. The edge you have heard in my voice as of late and the occasional annoyance I've displayed (which I apologize for) has been because of a rather tough past month RL wise and, admittedly, the stupid prince being a jerkhead and my eternal token of Shatar exalted'ness being forever attached to my hip :]. But moving on along. We've died more times than we can count for one another, we've paid monstrous repair bills for the sake of our advancement, we've ran ourselves through those corridors together until we were about to fall over with melted brains and tired faces. We’ve seen Karazhan go from a ten hour experience down to a farmed status of six and if that place could talk about some of the conversations that have occurred on Vent in its presence, it’d have to repent into the New Year. ‘tis truth.

We might not necessarily have the bond that those of SnG do, but in many ways we have become each other’s dysfunctional family members we know we can rely on, count on for a good laugh and generally be willing to put up with whatever shit (excuse my french) we throw at each other - both good and bad. Be it Eatmore’s BE dancing outside of Karazhan in a pink Easter dress for three hours, my face-palming inducing antics which would take years to explain or Serous regaling us with an absolute amazing rendition of MC Hammer over vent, we stuck on through it. You are why I still do Karazhan. I've grown to immensely care for you all and your quirks, regardless if we don't always see eye to eye, and my heart is still in that place to see those who have carried me along so far throughout it be able to call it finished. If it comes down to doing twenty more Ilhoof kills for Eatmore's cloak, just as many for Saltin's dang tier four gloves and if Gruul chooses to hate Damoxian as much it has, I'll stay right on through for those blasted trousers from the Opera event too. You have given me patience upon patience as I face pulled another group for the what.. 17th time? And put up with my general absolute nonsense and doom of epic proportions. We’ve seen each other’s good days and the bad days, we’ve rooted for one another when there wasn’t a voice left to give and the friendships we’ve created, the memories made, the gear which lies upon our backs and the Vanguard connection amongst us all – it was made possible by this idea of “teams” taking hold, coming to life and surviving on.
(( /end disscussion directed towards Vanguard ))

Vanguard happened because of ten people who really didn’t know each other eventually found each other, created a synergy that took us to the top of that tower with success and grew into what we of all have come to know and love.

And I'll admit I was quite for this idea until I sat down, thought a bit and wrote that. It's occurred to me that if doing this means I'm going to be losing Vanguard within Karazhan.. after all we've been through, bled for, cried over, laughed at and walked down together.. Without that Medivh’s tower will simply never be the same for me. Ever again. And I'm unsure how easy it will be for me to ever go back inside without those attached to my hip I have come to expect and know.

A part of me does genuinely want more of IST to get the chance, to get the gear and to stop our insane growing piles of Void Crystals, but I'm equally disheartened it’s going to be taking away the comfort, the reliability, the knowhow and the accountability of our teams that so many of us have come admire and adore - some that even consider it their second home in game. I don’t know how okay that’s going to be to take that away from us. And we –are- working on getting more people into our runs as we speak. Just tonight we had Anca, Lupus and Viridis all with us.. there just needs to be a better way to somehow go about doing it.

This is soooo long, sorry, I’ll try and wrap it up. :X

It’s true that many are able to say they’re done with Karazhan loot wise in Vanguard/SnG, but they’re still there going at it (even if it may be on an alt) and putting in their time, effort and care into making it happen weekend after weekend. And why? We're not being greedy or selfish, but Karazhan has given us nine others (or ten in Vanguard’s case) that we have come to bond with, we’re there to see those we’ve come to know these past months conquer, for the insanity that happens on Vent and to generally be surrounded by these wonderful people we’ve stumbled into virtually that without question we’ll give our Friday, Saturday or Sunday nights to. And they're there for us in turn.

While I am for helping more in IST get geared and working towards the future of 25 mans, in the end I am not for losing what Vanguard has come to mean to me in Karazhan. And I truly apologize for the wrench that this may throw in things, but if Vanguard is taken away from Medivh’s silly playplace, Sound will likely be leaving right with it. Please know that I believe Jabadue offered some rather solid alternatives to look at and I am not so stubborn in the sense that I wouldn’t be willing to work a few changes in for the good of the guild…

But what I wish for now is ground somewhere in the middle which would allow for the good of the guild and the preservation of the Karazhan teams to foster and thrive at once. Some may say I’m asking for my cake and to eat it too. I just don’t think diminishing Vanguard, SnG and Entourage is the way to go about it anymore. And I don’t know how elitist, cliquey, clingy or mature this all may make me seem, but it is what it is. My honesty is all I have to offer you.

((editing this in after my gillion other edits, but I freakin' love Waka's idea below. Said rotations could eventually lead to those permanently replacing others when they wish to step down and I think it could really work. This is all. *passes the heck out*))

[Guest]

I'll throw this out there: I liked this idea a lot a few days ago, and wayyyyy back when BC came out and knew nothing about anything, I thought that this was the way it should shake down.

Damo and Naruth have pretty compelling arguments, though. Vanea points out that sometimes it's tough find replacement members, and he's right. I'm on at the right times, and I hope I'm known as a good healer. I seem to be high on people's call lists. They also know they can bother me when I'm on my alt.

I make myself well enough known that I do get rotated in plenty, without having an existing system in place. Would it be possible to create, instead of a Rotation System, a Rotation Facilitation? We get a list going, in one place and not a subforum, of Raid Group Times and Karazhan Keys. Some people I know didn't know that these ambiguous "Saturday, June 72nd" posts in Kara subforums were absentee notices. Maybe we just need to get rid of these subforums, just have a more comprehensive Karazhan forum.

What this comes down to is communication, more than anything else, I think. I, as a Full-Time Substitute Raider, make sure that they all know that I'm geared and ready, and I've even been known to talk to Efluvious and Damoxian (and Satva, in Discord) and say, "Hey, know if there'll be a healer spot this week?" For their part, if we had a single list for them to review somewhere, it'd make it much easier for them to find subs, and rotate people in, within our already working system.

[Kosath]

Also a bit unfair for an officer who does not raid (consistantly) to lead this movement and assign raiding groups.

Vanea, I'm going to keep this civil and yet somehow try to explain exactly how insulting and wrong this statement is.

From roughly the beginning of march 2006 to the end of december, we raided Molten Core 1 night a week, and 2 nights a week from june 14th on. That is roughly 65 Molten Core raids. Do you know how many of those I missed? Two.

We ran Zul'Gurub that entire time as well as 6 months prior to that for 1 or 2 days a week. That was somewhere on the order of 150 raids, and I missed those less than half a dozen times.

For a solid year, every monday and wednesday, I would come home from work, take a nap, wake up, eat dinner, raid until midnight (EST) and get up at 5:30 AM to go back to work. I took time off from work on occasion as well, and I did not always want to go to raids I had done dozens of times before. I had Shillatae ask me numerous times "why are you doing this to yourself?"

But I was there because it was my responsibility to be there.

Since the expansion came out, I have not had a scheduled raid until Entourage got off the ground, and that was only after my attempts to form an open Karazhan raid fell through. Do you know how many Entourage runs I've missed? Zero.

Gruul's lair I do not run often, and quite honestly, feel I am unneeded for it. Gruul himself is a DPS fight, and I have stepped out of the run to make sure an extra protection warrior wasn't dragging you down.

The bottom line here is, if you want to disagree with the plan, then that is fine. But do not question my "consistency" as a raider, because it displays an incredibly short memory and tunnel-visioned view of the current raid situation.

I have made nearly every raid I have ever been scheduled to be on. If this mountain of evidence is not enough, then I will gladly discuss this at the end of the month, and express just how much it enrages me to have all that I've done so casually cast aside by someone who should know better.

[Kosath]

Now, some additional comments:

Jabadue and Wakaraina have proposed alternatives. Compromise is good. It's why we're discussing this.

Take a look at this thread. It's a divisive topic, and clearly there is a problem we're addressing. Damoxian illustrated all of the concerns extremely well and with a frank honesty I've definitely come to appreciate. I think he clearly understands both sides of the issue.

My idea has problems, and some of those are not problems that are inherent to it. They're problems the current raid structure already has.

Propose new solutions, as Wakaraina and Jabadue have done. The only criteria here is that we're trying to make 10-man raiding inclusive instead of exclusive.

Those extra raiding slots you can't fill... do you guys honestly think people check those mini-group forums every week? I sure don't. Find a way to make that more available.

And that small-group family feel you've come to love... I can't possibly be the only person who had (and still has) that feeling with MORE than 9-12 others. Find a solution that gets you grouping with more people while maintaining your current friendships. That is what I'm looking for here.

And where did this "forming a fourth Karazhan group" nonsense come from? When did I say that? I don't know that we have enough healers and tanks for it either. I'd be happy if even the 3 existing groups mixed players more and brought in more new blood. That's what I'm going for.

And finally, I have to say this: Sound, love your post, it is well thought out and I like that you've changed your mind after giving it more thought. That is the kind of thing we're looking for. But please, let me introduce you to the "enter" key.

And of course, the icing on the cake from Damoxian. This should be a signature:

And one final thought about tribe unity from Damoxian. Events outside of raiding need a bigger spotlight. For a guild thats not about raiding, I hear it as the focus of just about every interaction in the tribe right now. If you want to make a difference...Roleplay. Don't talk about raiding.

[Cloudjumper]

I don't like raiding, just wanted to put that out there. Running the same content over and over again for gear, keys, whatever is to me one of the things I seriously dislike about all MMO games. Having said that what I do like is experiencing new content and grouping with people I like and have fun with.

As strange as it sounds I like the group idea for this 10 man Karazhan content. Fact is you need a solid core of folks to raid with, to learn with, it is important to know when you need to shift out of bear form to drop a couple heals on the mage so she doesn't die while doing her AOE spam thing. And you need people who are all on the same road to content progression, I mean personally I don't think I would enjoy Damoxian's raid group because I am not that focussed on the need to progress.

I agree that there does need to be some rotation through the groups just to make sure that everyone gets their shot, cause later we are going to need people geared up for the more advanced stuff. And it also means the existing groups get the occational refresh in terms of new people, cause nothing is better for refreshing the same content than helping someone experience it for the first time.

The plan to rotate folks through seems a good one to me, because we don't want to break our groups apart. We just want to make sure that the people that aren't experiencing Karazhan now get the opportunity to enjoy themselves.

And I agree with Damoxian's other statement, that we as a guild need to focus more on our RP than we are doing on raiding. I have noticed that we don't seem to do near as many RP events as we used to. Also moot attendance is down a lot too which has always been one of our strongest RP type events.

[Guest]

One thing I will say. I would rather see some peoples mains start getting geared up rather than other peopls alts at this point.

Thank you. That is one thing that bothered me a lot when it came to raiding. As well as people switching mid stream of the raid to get their alt to roll on loot. (Which I guess can be fine if no one else could use it)

[Guest]

Everything I could say has been said. I support what has been said by Vanea, Naruth, Jabadue and Damoxian.

It started as raiding. It turned into a group of friends (ie, clique). I wanted a team that would progress so I picked out the people that felt similarly, who were also friends and who I knew I could put up with indefinably. But its not about the loot. Its about releasing stress from the week with a group of people as zany and off the wall as I am.

I see it more as sitting around playing cards, watching TV or whatever with a group of friends ... with a lot of cursing and swearing and stealing aggro.

Most of Smash and Grab doesn't need *anything* from Karazhan but they go each week because they like being with each other. It wasn't about the Tribe. It was about having fun with friends.

The Tribe has no authority or place trying to mess with that.

No.

[Guest]

Vanea, I'm going to keep this civil and yet somehow try to explain exactly how insulting and wrong this statement is.

Whitehorn, what I said was not meant to insult, and for that I'm sorry, but for note, i was not even touching pre-bc material. I am aware, participated in, and enjoyed every single raid that I attended under your and Akora's leadership. I know how much effort you and he both put into that raid to make it as successful as it was. I was speaking more of current raids. While discussing my concerns about this with others, my statements were never corrected about you not raiding currently, I was unaware that Entourage was going weekly again, it's been such an up and down team. I stand corrected.

anyway.

Jaba, <3^infinity. I do like the idea of trading out with people from time to time as needed, or to play with alts. And you said it better than I about mixing.
Ana, swearing and stealing aggro? we don't do that >.>

[Guest]

As far as this little druid is concerned... I've never been into Kharazan. This makes me sad, but not for the reasons you might think.

First, my attempts at organizing a mid-week Khara run failed spectacularly. My schedule is such that I'm surprised I'm still playing WoW and not on another of my breaks. As such, I've not really been expecting to tag along with a Khara raid. I've been offered, yep.

Second, the "sad" is coming from not getting to raid with all you crazies. As Anathamon said, it's really about relieving stress with people as zany as you (or me, in this case) and I don't get to do that much. I'm not sure how many people I'm speaking for here, but I don't care about the loot. The only reason I'm still playing WoW is because I like you guys so darn much, and it saddens me that I don't get to be part of your adventures. I don't blame the "cliques," because there was already something rather similar to that starting when we were running AQ20. Mostly, I blame Blizzard for refusing us 40-man content and the Tribe cohesion that came from running MC.

That being said... I hope all of you reading and posting to this forum are keeping in mind that no one is trying to take away your fun. After reading these posts (getting frustrated and warm and fuzzy, alternately) I've come to the conclusion that all of you are just trying to enjoy your game time and promote cameraderie in the Tribe. Everyone's making great points, and I can see where you're all coming from.

Before I sound too much like a pacifist, however, I'd like to point out that if people really had a problem with running Khara with those defined groups, they could have a) joined that group of Abbru's, b) joined my/Kretol's attempts at a mid-week group or c) started their own group. Additionally, as several others have pointed out, there have been numerous requests for aid in Khara from the established groups. It appears to me that a makeshift rotation system already exists. We just have too many people in the Tribe right now for the number of raiding groups established.

*climbs off her soapbox*

I love you guys, really.

End scene.

[Takeena]

I am trying to approach this from a calm and collected manner, something that I sometimes fail to do when involving myself in a discussion. It's a fault of mine, one that has gotten me into trouble in the past. So, here goes!

I am completely perplexed by the unwillingness to separate three segregated groups of guild members to mix it up and allow fresher faces to participate. I understand loyalty and love for your friends, but implying that new people would destroy the cohesion as a group boggles me. What other people are you imagining yourselves raiding with? I don't think it's a personal attack on anyone outside of the three groups, I'm positive that it isn't meant in that light. If we don't even have ten people to form a fourth group (which would only add to the problem, if it can be called a problem), there can't be so many as to completely dissipate any of the three.

To me, it's almost as if it's three separate guilds that have merged. Each of the groups have their rules, their own people, their own ways of doing things. I don't like the feeling that it gives me when I face this wall that hinders my ability to participate in raiding. It's like.. all of the fun, all of the family feel of this guild that made me want to join on Viridis, is completely gone and is replaced by... what, I don't know. To continue with the family thing, it's like there are three different sets of aunts and uncles that only want to see me if they need me to help clean their house or put up Christmas lights.

What I neglected to do in this long-winded post is offer a solution to the problem. What is obvious is that we can field three Karazhan runs at the very least. I propose each group has a sign up for their days, where the core members perhaps have priority, that will allow those of us without a group to be able to both be involved (even if only placed on standby, in case someone slotted cannot go for whatever reason) and feel like we're part of the guild. The complaints over not being able to field runs would be solved in this way - most of the time, if I know in advance to be online and ready, I can plan around involving myself in a raid.