WoW Web Stats

[Guest]

Flash heal is extremely inefficient however. The only good thing about it is how quick it heals. If you are on just one target, start casting Greater heal, and interupt it if it's not needed right then, and keep renew (my best friend) up all the time. If the damage is coming slow and greater heals aren't necessary, use regular heal. no need to waste that mana on flash heal. I may be incorrect however. I'm not the expert on priests. That is just what I do in my experience.

Eh, not so much regular old "heal" but downranking gheal seems to be much more popular. A downranked gheal, while slower cast time than flash, heals for more hp per mana than flashheal.

Downrank while you can, eru! come xpac no more

[Eruadan]

My comments have created conflict, thus I have taken them off in order to prevent anything further.

[Guest]

I have more faith in play style and experience than I do in the numbers on that report. What that report shows wont affect how I play, and if thats not good enough for anyone I will gladly step out of Jabadues raid for someone else.

I am personally getting sick of people picking at my comments because I play very differently than anyone else. My comments on raiding/classes/gear/speccing are at an end now because of it.

The fundamental point that you're missing is that the comments AREN"T about putting you down or telling you to not play how you want. You're the one who initially made the comment about being at the bottom of the healing list. People are just commenting on WHY. We all want to see each other do well, and it's nothing to freak out about when someone makes a comment. This is especially true when the suggestion in question is in regard to the use and timing of one spell over another.

This is one tiny thing that could improve things for yourself as well as other astronomically. If you don't want to, that's fine, but don't complain when you continue to sit on the bottom when your other skills say that's not where you belong.

I don't want to see this thread go downhill into a battle of posts where everyone's feelings are hurt. That's not the Ironsong way and that's totally not the point of posting these stats. Before anyone else posts an emotionally charged post I beg of you as a fellow Ironsonger to step back and THINK. We're not out to hurt each others feelings, discourage raiding, or telling you how to gear/spec/play; BUT we are here to try to help each other become the best players we can be. Please don't be dramatic because it's only counter productive.

[Zeengo]

With all due respect eru, that is just being stubborn and stand-offish. Why is it so hard to accept constructive criticism from someone that has more experience with the problems you are having then you do? Seriously, give it a try and see what happens. If it does not help then go back to the way you do it.

But in all honesty man, what they are saying is right. The only people that really need to use that much of their fast heal are paladins and then they do it because it is much more effective at raid healing then their only other heal. Their efficiency with it is just through the roof, something that can not be said for from most other healing classes.

[Shillatae]

We'd certainly prefer not to close this discussion down.

Please remember that Dispaya /just/ reminded everyone of the non-coaching rules and that they go both ways. In spirit that should apply in a thread like this as well. Eruadan did not ask for help and, when help was offered tried to deflect it. The replies (I feel) got increasingly insistent-seeming (I doubt this was intended) until someone took offense.

We need to know how to defuse these sort of interactions rather than seeing them through to the end. Please let's let this go and no hard feelings, alright?

If anyone has a personal problem with any of this please PM me or any officer you are comfortable talking with asap! We only want to assist in moderating, not chill discussion or expression.

Tae

[Melikar]

Hmm, well Melikar, I can see a few changes that you could make.

First, your socketing. since you are a dps warrior/pvp warrior never socket for stamina or resilience. Always go for strength/crit. For blue sockets, if you want the socket bonus (if it is worth it) go with a purple gem that has str/stam. You could also clean up your spec a little bit. Blood craze is pretty much crap. 2% health over 6 seconds... if you have 10000 health, thats 200 health over 6 seconds those 2 talent points are returning if you take a critical hit. Not worth it. Throw those two into commanding presence. You could use a little more hit rating, but that will come with some gear (for the bosses). No need to socket for that. Other than that, just be sure you are using Slam /right/ after you hit with your normal swing, and if you have rage left over use MS or Whirlwind until your next normal swing. (my second post has swingtimer info fun timez)

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind.

And I'll start looking for more purple/strength/crit enhancing gems. Once I save up the gold, that is. >.>

[Eruadan]

My comments have created conflict, thus I have taken them off in order to prevent anything further.

[Cloudjumper]

Plus the number as I stated earlier are not accurate. If you go into the Webstat report you will see there is virtually nothing shown for the last fight. And a lot of the numbers previous I suspect are a little off.

[jabadue]

Everyone needs to calm down and take a step back from this.

First of all, I posted one incomplete report. Before anybody changes anything, I think more data is needed. That is the correct way to use data. Gather enough until you see a trend, make changes, and observe again. I plan on using the WoW webstats again. Don't read too much into this one, flawed piece of data.

Second, our raiding philosophy is still in place:

Ironsong Statement of Raiding Philosophy

Ironsong is a family-oriented, role-playing guild that likes to raid in order to build community and see new content. Ironsong will therefore support, organize, and lead raids. However, Ironsong is not a raiding guild. This means that we will not use the guild structure to enforce performance or attendance.

The top priority of Ironsong-led raiding is inclusion, which means admitting as many members who want to raid as possible, and bringing new players into the raid. Our second priority is to allow our players to see as much content as we can, which means progression into more difficult content.

Satisfying both of these goals means that sometimes we ask for the patience and support of our members towards guildmates who are new or less experienced, and for our members to make a serious effort to fulfill the role they need to play in a raid.

To satisfy this goal is a challenge that "Raiding" guilds do not face. Namely, how to maintain a friendly, casual raiding atmosphere while progressing in content? Part of this is that we will not ask our members to respec if they do not want to. Certainly, if no one wants to spec a straight healing spec, then, the raid is in trouble, but I have faith that will not be the case.

I did not perceive a problem with healing on Friday night at any point, so let's move on. Our main difficulty was with Phase 2 of Alar, something that gives a lot of raids problems, and for that, we need more practice.

Finally, Eruadan is a valued member of the tribe and raid. He shows up regularly and contributes to our successes. He and I had a conversation back when I was running ZA runs, and at that time, I told him he could raid with us with the spec that he enjoys playing with. It was my decision.

In general, this thread has been constructive and I encourage people to continue it, if they are getting something good out of it.

-Jaba

[Guest]

Finally, Eruadan is a valued member of the tribe and raid. He shows up regularly and contributes to our successes. He and I had a conversation back when I was running ZA runs, and at that time, I told him he could raid with us with the spec that he enjoys playing with. It was my decision.

I'd just like to clarify that, while Eruadan's spec is not an optimal raiding spec, and while I've suggested that he would do better with CoH, the meat of my suggestions were based around keeping his discipline spec intact. There IS a way to make discipline work, for healing, and that's exactly what I was trying to help with. Afterall, until halfway through T5, when I realized for myself how suboptimal it was, *I* was the token discipline priest in our raids.

But I understand that he doesn't want an ounce of my advice, and that's the last of it he'll get. The rest of this post uses my interaction with him as an example, but addresses a more general concern:

No coaching is important. In that context, I'm an experienced raider "coming down" on an inexperienced one, bludgeoning him with my opinions as though they were facts. But I think this situation really highlights a deeper problem than the no coaching rule was meant to prevent, and one that is inherent in the noble IST goal of being an inclusive guild with inclusive raids:

What happens when you have someone who doesn't want to get better?

This was what I was trying to get at, in my original post of outside advice. I think the ideal of allowing alternative, non-optimal specs that are fun to play, is a good one. Eruadan should be allowed to play a discipline priest, if he really doesn't enjoy playing a holy one. That's part of IST's philosophy and part of what keeps people coming to IST, right?

But does that mean he can just cast mass dispel over and over again, because he likes that spell best and he might have invested some talent points in it? What if he runs out of mana within the first minute of every fight? Are the other healers allowed to expect him to change his play style, if they aren't supposed to critique his spec? If he happens to not like their suggestions, and continues on his merry way casting a useless spell, ignoring any advice given to him, what happens?

Obviously this is a corner case, not one that is actually experienced, but it is analogous to casting flash heal repeatedly on a tank (ie. casting the wrong spell at the wrong time and making the other healers work harder as a result). Is it acceptable to not care about playing your chosen spec well, or about the adverse effects your decisions might have on others?

I had assumed the answer to the latter was "no, you should always be prepared to fulfill your role to the best of your ability." I thought that was part of the requirement that raiders show up prepared for a raid, in the IST raiding rules. If the answer is "yes, you can do whatever you want, and if you don't want any advice, nobody should give you any, and you can keep coming along," then...well I'll be happy to shut up and wish you all good luck. I'm sorry if any of my suggestions were non-constructive, I just (grossly) misinterpreted the philosophy.

I'd like to close with some perspective: when I was raiding MC with IST as Bloodfeaster, I was a terrible warlock. My raid spec was abysmal, my DPS was laughable, and my gear was rarely (if ever) enchanted properly. The other warlocks in IST were all very friendly to me, and never made me feel like my spec was stupid, or unacceptable, or that my performance was sub-par (in reality, ALL of those things were true). But, at the same time, when I saw that there were other warlocks (Damoxian, Eveline, Tetsumis) who were doing so much better than me, I had to ask them for advice and learn how to be a better one. I'm glad I did, because I became a better player for it. I just don't understand the mentality of someone who doesn't want to get better, and I don't understand why that's acceptable to everyone who IS trying to get better.

[Eruadan]

My comments have created conflict, thus I have taken them off in order to prevent anything further.

[Kosath]

Elyana, you know we value your insight here. I've encouraged it, in fact. But you're allowing a disagreement with one person to reflect on the Tribe as a whole.

Offering advice is always a risky game... and perhaps consider that we, as officers and raid leaders, have struggled to deal with exactly your current dilemma on numerous occasions. There is no "black and white" to it, only reasonable expectations.

And to everyone, stop posting here unless you're asking for advice.

[Guest]

I'll stop, and I do apologize for taking this thread in the wrong direction. I would be very sad if this makes Jaba reconsider posting the WWS for future raids, and I hope that most people in the raid will use it constructively and continue to gauge their performance from week to week. I won't have much purpose to post in them, in the future, since the person who might benefit most from my advice has no desire for it, and Saerrina could probably offer -me- some tips with how well she heals. I'd suggest she be forced to take on priest class lead.

[Guest]

Apprently the raiding philosophy needs clarification, because I am interpreting it the same way as Ely.

I am all for speccing how you want, playing how you want, and finding your own place in a raid. However, I find it extremely disheartening to see people fall by the wayside and hiding behind "It's my playstyle" when trying a few suggestion could actually make things more fun.

It's a shame I see this thread turning into an ear plugging thread of sorts. I was hoping seeing this would allow eacha dn every raider here to take a good long look at themselves and say "How can I improve?", then ask more experienced raiders.

WWS should be used a bit like yoga. We use it to improve ourselves and learn from each other. It's a self meditative thing, but a group activity as well.

Since a good group of us Ironsongers aren't "hardcore raiders" we definately can improve! I looked at that report and went "wow, I obviously refreshed SWain too much. that shouldn't be my most casted spell!"

Each of us needs to look and say things to ourselves like "I apparently didn't keep my dots up as well as I could have", "I used too much flash heal", "I'm doing everything I can, is there something wrong with my gear/spec?".

I will come right out and say now that I should not be in the dps spot that I am in. Take that how you want

[Efluvious]

Flash heal is extremely inefficient however. The only good thing about it is how quick it heals. If you are on just one target, start casting Greater heal, and interupt it if it's not needed right then, and keep renew (my best friend) up all the time. If the damage is coming slow and greater heals aren't necessary, use regular heal. no need to waste that mana on flash heal. I may be incorrect however. I'm not the expert on priests. That is just what I do in my experience.

Eh, not so much regular old "heal" but downranking gheal seems to be much more popular. A downranked gheal, while slower cast time than flash, heals for more hp per mana than flashheal.

Downrank while you can, eru! come xpac no more

Hmm, downranking greater heal /is/ good. Back before the regen change, I used to be able to cast max rank Heal indefinitely (it's what I resorted to when I was oom with no pot or shadow fiend available), but since my regen has improved, I'll be using downranked greater heals instead. This isn't to say I never use flash heal, it just...costs so much mana for the amount of healing you get out of it! My favorite spell as a discipline priest (I've always been full disc, 42/19/0. It's suboptimal for raiding, but for PVP its the best) is renew. I <3 renew. I toss them around like Freithe does cuss words.