I need some assistance

[Uglawha]

"Thesis?" Sounds like shammy! Magic Stuffs! ((LOL my own PhD thesis is a bear Sreng so you got my sympathies!))

[Guest]

Let me start by saying that, Kosath I feel your pain. I was a guild officer for many years and know how this kind of stuff makes you feel.

Having said that, my opinion on this really doesn't mean all that much and won't effect me a great deal because as far as Friday night goes, I think that I had last night and just one more Friday coming up, off of work until after Christmas.

People that have known me for many years, know that I am always on time for raids, and prepared with all the potions and other tools that I need to perform during the raid. Indeed, last night as usual I was one of the first two people there. I waited around for the better part of an hour when I was informed that we would be rolling for spots. When it came time to roll, I rolled and my roll was high enough to attend, had I so chosen. However, I opted to pass, because I will not roll against my friends and fellow guildies for raid spots, i'll find another way to spend my time.

As far as options to remedy this goes, I like the following.

a) rotation by class, excluding noone, unless the raid has a shortage in that class that night. I would make exceptions in the case of whoever is leading the event as that person usually knows all the strats etc.

b) advanced signups on this board, so that the raid leader will know who is coming ahead of time, thus not wasting raid time, and it also forces people to visit this sight, also a good thing.

Masai

[Shillatae]

Masai:

a) Rotations are what we are doing, essentially, but not strictly by class but by role in part once minimums for classes are filled. The question begged by a rotation was, "Who gets to be first in the rotation?" The only non-arbitrary method seemed to be a roll off. I'm sorry you had a personal problem with this and chose to not go on one of your last two opportunies for a while as a result.

b) Signups, while a popular idea, are essentially two things: 1. A "first-come, first-served" system for those who come and sign up ASAP once signups start and 2. a punishment to those who do not visit the site. I'm fine with rewarding those who visit and use the site but not with punishing those who do not by limiting their involvement in guild activities.

Again, Masai, your contributions, punctuality, preparedness, and competence are noticed and highly valued by the Tribe. I'm sorry that you felt your time was wasted and your chance missed. It was no one's intention.

Shillatae

[Waltimus]

Well,
Here is my 2 cp.

After reading everyone's posts very carefully, it's my conclusion that nobody has the answer and conflict plague's the guild.

Everyone here is extremely bright and many have previous experience with high end raiding guilds - myself included.

Without picking on anyone, I'd like to point out some of the flaws of our thinking (in hopes of bringing us closer to an answer).

Initially, we say "we are not a raiding guild" but do this for fun. Yet, we are focused on raiding and the problems associated with raids. This entire thread is converse to that initial point.
Further, it was pointed out that a points based system is not recommended due to unfairness. Yet, again in this thread we attempt to instantiate some sort of wheighted system (points or otherwise). None of which accounts for the fact that Fleethoof is our only Druid who would circumnavigate all systems due to the solo class of druid. Still further it doesn't take into account people that have multiple 60 level characters (such as myself 60 mage and 60 priest) who could participate in multiple points based systems due to demand of the night (what do we need more a mage or priest?) and even further still, none of the systems are fair to the people that just plain show up every night (the faces you see over and over again) whom I call "the Ironsong Faithful". The recommended system fails to take into account the fact that these folk show up every night ready to go on a consistent basis (They deserve to go). Case and point: Kosath, Eveline, Rawne, Shillatae, Saltin, Zarrema, fleethoof, myself and a few others (I apologize if your name was ommited and you are a faithful) consistently show up prepared and ready to go and RARELY fail to get to go on a Zul'Gurub raid.

The truth of the matter is, this is a LEADERSHIP PROBLEM. Ironsong is heading towards being a Raiding guild and like it or not, we must choose between being one or not.

We are at a crossroads. Quit fooling around and choose to either be a raiding guild or not.
If we choose not, then set the rules now and be done with it. There are only organized Zul'Gurub raids on Mondays for the faithful, and as the size of the guild grows, we have more than one night of ZG, UBRS, or whatever. No need to set a calendar, no need to choose who goes and who stays.
If we choose to be a raiding guild, set the rules now. Create an officer council where each class is represented or choose a raid coordinator or both. This job is to big for Kosath to do. It takes a TEAM of people. Find the time table for people's attendance and create a guild calendar/ schedule. Attendance should be a priority as should loot, which requires a loot system. Set that up now as well. DKP is crappy. I'll never use it. I've got the greatest system in the world (came from the War Council - EQ - Saryrn server). It's the most fair system I've ever seen as even noobs can win loot from their first raid.

Anyway, my point is, the guild must choose. If we don't it will tear up the friendships and we will lose people like Kosath and Shillatae.

[Zarraema]

(( While I -hate- the thought of rolling for spots, I feel that it was the only fair way you guys could possibly have handled it. It is a difficult thing to do, to leave good people standing outside of the gates while the rest of us (also good people) go in...and every person that was not able to attend was missed sorely... I do think the rotation is an excellent idea, and that the rolling was the only truely fair way to figure out a start for it.

Could have just had everyone jump off of the twin colossals and take who lived...hehe <huggles everyone> ))

[Shillatae]

After reading everyone's posts very carefully, it's my conclusion that nobody has the answer and conflict plague's the guild.

Having been in Ironsong since December of 2004, I can say with confidence that conflict has never plagued the guild and does not now. Kosath opened up an Officer issue to the guild at large to hear some ideas and people gave their opinions. I don't feel there has been any argument about it, and the system has already been chosen using several ideas to maximize folks's chances to raid with us.

Initially, we say "we are not a raiding guild" but do this for fun. Yet, we are focused on raiding and the problems associated with raids. This entire thread is converse to that initial point.

No, we are not focussed on raiding, this thread happens to be about raiding however. If you were in a large raiding guild I think you can see that our 20-man groups in the lowest of the existing raid content zones in this same is hardly enough to constitute a "raiding" guild.

Fleethoof is not the only druid, the other druids just haven't happened to been able to / willing to attend. We certainly won't disenchant druid items because she is the only person who can use them and has already won something, though I realize that it not your point either.

People who have multiple level 60 characters I /strongly/ encourage bringing whichever character you prefer playing, not asking what the group needs more. While I have appreciated that in the past we can make the group work well with whatever we have rather than put pressure on Saltin to play Saltin or you to play Nightdemon or whichever. If you aren't just focusing on loot then in fact having multiple characters of different class roles actually improves your odds of getting to go based on the needs of the group, but regardless, play what you prefer on any given night.

Random rolls are plenty fair to those who come every time. All of those who you have mentioned have received as much or more loot total than anyone else. I'll be posting the master loot lists from the entire lifespan of Zul'Gurub when I get the chance. If you are here everytime you get many more chances at rolls and the law of averages eventually wins out.

The truth of the matter is, this is a LEADERSHIP PROBLEM. Ironsong is heading towards being a Raiding guild and like it or not, we must choose between being one or not.

We are not. We are an RP guild, the largest and most well-known on the server. We have a very good reputation, high quality members who are good at their RP and their classes by and large, many friends and allies in other guilds, and a completely drama-free history. Don't blow Kosath's personal stresses out of proportion here.

We are at a crossroads. Quit fooling around and choose to either be a raiding guild or not.

I'm not sure what makes this a crossroads when we've been running all-Ironsong raids since June or July, nor do I see in what manner we are fooling around. Kosath had a personal concern that he chose to share with the guild at large, and people stepped up to offer their opinions. The officership has come up with a solution after taking these opinions into due consideration.

We are not a "raiding guild", which is a very loaded term. We are an RP / Family guild that is large enough to run raids from time to time. Zul'Gurub is meant as a "casual raid zone" for non-raiding guilds to run. We were very happy when it was released for that reason as MC (which is far more about loot than ZG which has many quests and faction rewards in addition) is still a good distance off for us should we ever decide to do it.

Anyway, my point is, the guild must choose. If we don't it will tear up the friendships and we will lose people like Kosath and Shillatae.

I appreciate your concern but, truly, you needn't fear that at all. Kosath and I are founding members and RL friends and roomates. Many of our members are RL friends, family, couples, people who have known each other in other games -- this is in many ways a family guild in the truest sense just as you yourself, Walt, said recently to Galven. I agree with you! I am sorry that the debate in this thread struck a nerve for you. We were somewhat uncertain about opening this subject up to the guild at large but I feel it was the right thing to do and has served its purpose.

Thank you for your contribution to it, I just feel you may have taken what you read here as a bit more extreme than it actually was intended.

I will be locking this thread after this post, as I believe it has served the purpose for which it was intended -- to relieve the burden from Kosath and spark discussion in order to tighten up our invite system. Please post in my announcement thread about ZG with specific schedule concerns you may have, everyone. Thank you for your help with this matter and if you have any further questions feel free to contact myself or Kosath in game or PM me on this site.

Yours,
Shillatae

PS: This thread was never about loot, just FYI. The think about DKP was an aside and something that was not pertinent to the topic at hand. Our loot system has been working reasonably well. Regulars like myself are gaining faction and completing quests while others accumulate dropped gear items. We're essentially farming the first half of this zone so everyone will get their shot at the gear from it. Raid loot rolls in a bit slower than instance loot but is generally worth it. : )