Raiding?

[Kosath]

It's a funny thing, thinking about raiding in the next expansion. When TBC came out, the officers largely said "enjoy questing again, we won't be in any hurry to jump right back into raiding." Trouble was, not everyone fealt that way. Some raced to 70th as fast as they could and began farming around the clock for the gear to raid. The guild moved apart... and in doing so, quite literally began to move apart.

So when looking ahead at the next expansion, the question really comes down to how quickly people want to blow through the leveling content. If people want to rush, I myself will likely be trampling the roses instead of smelling them in an attempt to keep things unified.

Regardless, I do have every intention of pursuing whichever path (10 or 25) we have the numbers to support.

The real question is what we do between now and then. Many people grow bored with the game (some blame the guild for that subconsciously) and use raiding to alleviate that boredom. Raiding is the variety the game offers, aside from what we create ourselves (RPing).

Jabadue's SSC run needs to succeed in that respect, because aside from Karazhan and ZA, everything else is 25-man. There is no other option. Otherwise we're doing 10-mans for the next 6 months and folks will slowly drift away.

I do continually feel that folks new to raiding are not given a chance by many of our more experienced raiders. If there was a way to get full Kara gear within 10 minutes of reaching 70th they might have a shot. Otherwise I hear words like "filler" used.

Every week I make an effort to bring new people to karazhan. I believe Thanuist got 8 pieces of gear the first week in there. Eruadan is a top-notch healer and someone I've come to rely on at this point. Each time a new person reaches 70th, I figure out how I'm going to fit them into the next kara run. I am honestly running out of space and usually have overflow on fridays of 2-3 people.

Granted, that is fridays and many more people seem available that night. I know Jabadue has tried repeatedly to do the same thing with sundays, but the numbers are lower. All I'm suggesting is if a group of people (with a little tolerance) were to gather a core of solid folks and brings along those extras (actively seek them out, send them tells, don't rely on the website), that solid core would grow larger.

[Logros]

All I'm suggesting is if a group of people (with a little tolerance) were to gather a core of solid folks and brings along those extras (actively seek them out, send them tells, don't rely on the website), that solid core would grow larger.

I think most of us raiders agree with the sentiment, just not the execution. Those of us that have been consistently trying to lead raids, or support them by showing up consistently, for the last 6 months or more, are pretty burnt out on setting up a new raid, and then having it wither for lack of interest.

If there are folks that want to go to Karazhan, honestly, all you have to do to go is organize a set day and time, and let people know. There's plenty of us raiders that would be happy to show up and kick arse with fellow IST members. What most of us want to see is the commitment being there, in the form of getting the raid going.

And heck, you don't need any serious raiders to do Karazhan. There weren't any a year ago when folks first started getting into it. In that case, you need to hit 5-mans and get blue gear, and then just pound away at Kara until you get better at it. It's what we did

[Kosath]

I'd love to see that happen Logros, but at this point I would like folks to reach the ability to do their part among the rest of the guild faster than it would take wiping on Moroes for a month.

As for the rest, I stand by my suggestion. If established leaders have failed to get raids going, what chance do people new to 70th have? I am saying take a different approach through direct tells and reaching out to them, since the passive approach of setting things up on the boards hasn't seemed to work.

[Guest]

We all want the T4, T5, and T6 items, this does require alot of effort and commitment, it requires Mods up the yinyang, items, potions, elixirs, it can be very very costly considering the market. T

I don't. While I don't mind having new stuff, and I like being helpful as a result of having new stuff, gear-as-a-goal does not interest me. At all. Period. Neither does "progression."

I raid (when I do) because I like hanging out with my guildies, and because I like seeing new places. I've largely stopped because a) I'm busier now than I was when I was still in college and b) this emphasis on progress and numbers and go go go feels really icky to me. I could overcome the first part pretty easily; the second part though, well, it makes me not want to even try.

If it still felt like MC, with the fun socialization and coordination and the sense that we were doing this as a way to have fun in a group (rather than because we want to tick these numbers off and get this kind of gear to move on to this other place), I'd move mountains to do whatever I could to help. Getting geared, rearranging my schedule, learning fights, whatever.

As it is, I respecced Resto very reluctantly, and only because one person persuaded me to do so as a friend. I'm glad it's useful to the raids I run with when I'm on, but if that were the only way anyone would look twice at me? They'd just have to find someone else. And that's the feeling I get from these discussions. '...We want you... but only if you hop through these hoops first and play the way we want and use schedules and rules and mods and parcel everything out into little tiny chunks... hey, where are you going? why can't we find enough people to do anything fun? stop it!'

Also, what Waka said.

[Guest]

'...We want you... but only if you hop through these hoops first and play the way we want and use schedules and rules and mods and parcel everything out into little tiny chunks... hey, where are you going? why can't we find enough people to do anything fun? stop it!'

I think that's a little unfair. The "raiders" who are trying to organize these things have already been through the content, they've gotten all their gear or better versions of it. They see folks in their tribe that want to see the content, too, and try to organize a way to make that happen.

They already get to do the things they consider "fun". They're just trying to share the wealth, so to speak, but the reality is that BC raiding requires more than just showing up. Because they've been the messengers of this bad news, a few folks seem to think that its them who are imposing these restrictions. Granted, some of those messengers *cough*Logros*cough* are easier to hate than others.

But...its the game. You can't show up to these raids with a random assortment of classes and gear. It just doesn't work and its not fun to wipe 100 times against the first boss and call it a night. Right?

[Kosath]

Sadly, Elyana is correct. While there are a lot of ways to approach it and I understand what many are saying, it is the stark reality of the game at the moment that things cannot be as simple as they once were for raiding. Now how we go about overcoming that, and with what absolutes... that's a different story, and one up for debate.

[Eruadan]

There are ultimately going to be members that sit on opposite sides of the spectrum. As the game evlolves Ironsong will ultimately need to evolve as well. Change is hard for those that do not wish for change and that is understandable. During these changes I feel its important to consider all angles and come up with a solution that would benefit as many members as possible as a whole. Along the way we need to help those that are struggling to help them understand why these changes may be needed, if there are any changes to be had.

I dont speak for the Warlord but...Ironsong will remain and ultimately remain a highly RP guild until he has deemed otherwise, I am hoping the RP sticks around for a very long time as it adds some spice to the gaming experience. Raiding is something that we will need to use along side RP in order to find a balance for members that sit on the side of the spectrum of progression/gear and those that sit on the RP side. I would think Ironsong for the most part would raid more for the experiences of the content rather than a main focus on gear. Am I wrong?

Take Sreng's abduction for example...never have I seen so many members involved in an RP event that ultimately lead us into a raid ON PURPOSE. That was one of the greatest Idea's I have ever seen in my time with Ironsong after BC that brough so many members of the tribe together for the purpose of raiding a dungeon, no it wasnt for gear...but it was more to experience content. Gear is an ultimate result of our experiences...do we do such a thing again? Is there an RP aspect that we can place within OUR realm of raiding to make things more interesting than the weekly grind of killing mobs and bosses and aquiring more gear? There has to be a balance somewhere....comments? Suggestions?

[Guest]

I think that's a little unfair. The "raiders" who are trying to organize these things have already been through the content, they've gotten all their gear or better versions of it. They see folks in their tribe that want to see the content, too, and try to organize a way to make that happen.

They already get to do the things they consider "fun". They're just trying to share the wealth, so to speak, but the reality is that BC raiding requires more than just showing up. Because they've been the messengers of this bad news, a few folks seem to think that its them who are imposing these restrictions. Granted, some of those messengers *cough*Logros*cough* are easier to hate than others.

But...its the game. You can't show up to these raids with a random assortment of classes and gear. It just doesn't work and its not fun to wipe 100 times against the first boss and call it a night. Right?

Those are two different things, at least to me. I'm not talking about what the game requires. I'm well aware that Burning Crusade changed things, and while I dislike those changes with a burning, firey, nearly irrational passion... I accept that they exist and that for me to continue playing, I've got to live with them. I admire the people who devote all of their time and effort to learning new things and getting through the endgame grind... and I am in awe of those who come back to help others along the way.

What I object to is the tenor of the discussions that goes on around them, and the way that the changes are adapted to. Yes, Logros is a very obvious example of the kind of thinking and writing that I'm talking about, but I see it pop up everywhere. Language (and actions) centered on the premise that the goal is the stuff and not the play; repeated emphasis on how the people who forged ahead (completely of their own volition) don't want to go back and do the unfun stuff with the slower people who got left behind; the exaggerated sense that one is being done a favor by being admitted to a raid, told to act differently, etc.*

(* These particular last ones are both completely understandable and utterly infuriating. While I understand that from the perspective of the person who forged ahead and really likes doing endgame material, things they had to grind through previously aren't fun and any attempts to help people through those things are, in fact, not fun and thus something one does as a favor ... that's not the only perspective. But my thoughts on the matter are likely to take the thread in a direction that I'd imagine would be derailing, so I'll sit on my hands for that.)

I know I'm in the minority. If we're going by Bartle, I'm a fairly rare type - almost entirely S. If I raid, it's to be with people. If I PvP, it's to be with people. If I quest, it's... well, okay, questing is usually for the fun of questing and to have something to do while waiting to do things with people, but it's definitely not for the rewards at the end. (Which, yes, makes my full type Seka.... but that's another digression entirely.)

That, and my own ornery streak, means that I tend to find these sort of discussions... infuriating. I really don't care about a lot of the stuff being prioritized, and the value system perpetuated is, quite frankly, alien to me. I am intellectually aware that most people don't think the way I do, but at the most basic level, I just don't get it. I don't mind wiping a dozen times against a boss because our group is imbalanced, if we're having fun while we're doing it. I love runs where we go "hey, let's see if we can do this with three priests, a shaman, and an undergeared lowbie," even if they end in absolutely nothing loot-wise. If I'm with people I like, I don't care if I'm in Wailing Caverns or Magtheridon's lair. (Okay, so I've never been to Magtheridon's lair, but the analogy still holds.)

So yes, I hate the assumption that we all want the phat lewtz, that we all care about progression, that getting that last fractional bonus from aligning your talents just this way instead of that way is more important than having a talent tree that you like and enjoy playing with. I don't think that way, and quite frankly, being told that it's the only correct way to play ... makes it really hard for me to complete this sentence within the bounds of our Code of Conduct.

I know it's mostly my own issues, which is why I try to separate 'what makes me happy and would make me want to join in' from 'what the Tribe should do.' I know I don't always do the best job, and I'm sorry if anyone was insulted.

[jabadue]

If you are with the right group of people and the atmosphere of the raid is right, then, it can be a load of fun, even if the goal is gear and progression. We have a blast with each other in the EndGame raid.

The main goal of the new SSC raid is to try and get IST raiding as a tribe again, pure and simple. Sure, there are other individual goals, but that does not change the main focus. The question is "Does Ironsong want to raid as a tribe?"

We all need to realize that we are not all cut from the same cloth. I tend to be very goal driven. I like to compete, and especially, I like to win. Does that mean I don't enjoy the RP? No. Does it mean I don't enjoy wiping time after time? It depends on if I think it is getting me closer to the goal. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

The challenge is to raid in a atmosphere that satisfies the different points of view expounded in this forum. We won't know unless we try.

-Jaba

[Fanae]

That, and my own ornery streak, means that I tend to find these sort of discussions... infuriating. I really don't care about a lot of the stuff being prioritized, and the value system perpetuated is, quite frankly, alien to me. I am intellectually aware that most people don't think the way I do, but at the most basic level, I just don't get it. I don't mind wiping a dozen times against a boss because our group is imbalanced, if we're having fun while we're doing it. I love runs where we go "hey, let's see if we can do this with three priests, a shaman, and an undergeared lowbie," even if they end in absolutely nothing loot-wise. If I'm with people I like, I don't care if I'm in Wailing Caverns or Magtheridon's lair. (Okay, so I've never been to Magtheridon's lair, but the analogy still holds.)

So yes, I hate the assumption that we all want the phat lewtz, that we all care about progression, that getting that last fractional bonus from aligning your talents just this way instead of that way is more important than having a talent tree that you like and enjoy playing with. I don't think that way, and quite frankly, being told that it's the only correct way to play ... makes it really hard for me to complete this sentence within the bounds of our Code of Conduct.

Personally, while I do like the stuff - and I like wearing my shiny gear - I've always felt that that only went so far. The big hardcore raiding guilds really are the logical result of that attitude, and it seems very impersonal to me to raid with a bunch of people whose major unifying attribute is that they Want Stuff. I don't think it's all that satisfying to raid x so you can get the gear to raid y so you can get the gear to raid z if that's all there is to it. I prefer to raid with a group of people who are unified firstly by factors other than the desire to get phat lewt, and I think that describes our (i.e., Bloodbound's) raiding groups reasonably well.

At the same time, I think getting people on the same page is important if a motivating factor is to see the content, which I think it is for a lot of people (the thought of paying for a game I only see 50% of just irks me in a really fundamental way) - a certain amount of coordination's necessary, but I don't think a raid has to sacrifice fun on the altar of progression to be successful.

Sure, you CAN mandate talent specs and force people to do whatever's necessary to blast through the content as fast as humanly possible, but I don't find it enjoyable to do so and I think most of the people I play with feel the same way. It's a balancing act, and raiding doesn't automatically mean you're signing up for night after night under the iron-fisted rule of someone who thinks the military's problem viz discipline is that it doesn't go far enough, but it does mean that people are signing up to be members of a team and won't always be able to go off and do whatever they want if they want that team to get anywhere.

I think it's a pisser that raiding is still by far the primary way to experience endgame, in that I think a lot of people are turned off by raiding, even though I think that situation is a lot better post-BC than pre-BC, where your choices for seeing content were limited to joining a 40-man raid and joining a different 40-man raid.

I think another thing to keep in mind is that no one's forced to accept the assistance of people who are already experienced raiders. One of the best experiences in WoW (I had written "in raiding", but I really think it's wider than that), I think, is to corral a group of like-minded people and forge a path through the content yourself (shaping your own strategy and watching it work really is an experience like no other, though I personally like to start from some kind of baseline, which is easy enough to find online). I do believe that the experienced people trying to help out have the best of intentions and I've seen them be successful, but they're not the only potential raid leaders out there.

[Eruadan]

Since there hasnt been very much futher activity to this thread I would like to add a small note:

Despite the differences between all of us and our personal goals, we as a tribe had a very successful raid within SSC. We had banded together as a team to overcome a new challange and we were successful. This proves that together Ironsong has the potential to progress. Many great things were said in this thread and I feel that it was something that needed discussion and in turn lead to a good turnout and good fun, not to mention an excellent learning experience.

We had announced via RP at a moot that SSC was going to be our next challenge, tribe members stood up to face that challenge, together. Similar to Srengs abduction I havent seen so many Ironsong together in a raid and that motivates me to be there again, and again, and again, so I can enjoy the company and hilarious quirks of the characters that are portrayed within Ironsong. I hope this is the same for others.

I feel this has been an important step to finding a balance to keep The Ironsong Tribe a strong guild, not just in RP but in raiding and our interactions with others. It is a beginning to find the balance with raiding so that we can experience what the game has to offer, find other opportunities to RP, and for some, get that next piece of gear. We may still be "smelling the roses", but were still still having fun with each other and thats what really counts.

Sing True Ironsong!