The Ironsong Tribe

Lhuurssa Wrote:Whether or not guildchat is IC or OOC doesn't define us as an RP guild.

I think some are just worried that it is too far down the slippery slope of losing our RPness. (sorry that sounded bad) I personally have not historically been a huge RPer and my experiences have been limited, but my impression was always that "serious" RP guilds tended to emphasize the IC /g chat rule. I don't think it's "required" in a sense that it's impossible to have an RP guild without IC /g, but just something that sort of went with the territory.

edit: To clarify, as an outsider potentially coming into the guild I would see the IC /g rule and might say "Hey, they're serious about this," and use that to weigh whether or not that was the experience I was looking for. Whereas seeing no such rule might lend me to believe I could do whatever and not worry about whether I had any RP leanings or not.

It's been brought up a few times, so I will clarify: there is no plan to change the application process. If any change is going to be made to the CoC, it will only be to reflect the change in channel use. As you were.

While we're clearing things up, I'm not sure what Alissandre is on about- if something I said gave the impression that I'm somehow anti-raider, it was not intended. I have nothing against raiding, but this isn't a raiding guild and it just seems to me that a lot of the justifications for this change are specifically aimed at enticing raiders to join/stay.

You want to raid? Power to ya. You don't want to RP? None of my freaking business. But when policy decisions about RP seem to be specifically motivated by non-RP goals I find myself rankled.

Also, Lucinther brought up a lot of really valid points. As usual.

Mirounga Wrote:

Lucinther Wrote:Essentially ... .... Why fix something that isn't broken?

I think the essential point being made in other entries here is that what we have now *is* broken. Simply. I am not going to rehash the thread, but I think it all boils down to perception of 'working' and 'not-working'. Reasons vary, and responses vary, but some are feeling very disconnected and some are happy with the status quo.

How is what we have now *broken*?
How is changing the channel structure going to make people feel less disconnected?
Either way we go... there are going to be people feeling very disconnected. Its not really a solution to a problem, its just changing the form that the problem is taking.

Lucinther brings up some good questions. I pretty much said how I feel about this, and think that switching OOC into guild and putting RP into a global channel will really do nothing different than what we have now. Yes, guild chat will be more active, but IronsongRP would remain the exact same as the guild channel was before said switch.

I like the idea of having the global channel for people outside of IST to RP with us. Or, as Waka said, to put our lowbies into so we can really get a feel for our new characters. We can easily leave guild chat IC and as a way for people to RP their characters in the guild hall. Whereas Ironsong RP could be used to RP in the outside world. The only real issue I have with the RP channel is that we really have no way to regulate said channel and who is going into it. If there are issues that begin between a member of IST and someone not in IST, there's nothing we can do unless someone with moderator privileges kicks one of the people from the chat if it gets serious. I suppose that's just a risk you take, but this is why you have a guild chat. So you can regulate there.

Make any sense?

Please keep this thread a friendly community discussion about the suggested change. Using labels like “raiders” and “RPers” is antagonistic. We are first and foremost a family guild which means we value the relationships we have with each other above all else. So please be respectful, considerate, and cool-headed and act like Ironsong.

I lean towards agreeing with the change. Before WotLK there was actually a good amount of OOC banter in the guild channel, only it was separated by being in double parenthesis--> (( )) However, prolonged OOC conversations were frowned upon in giuldchat so that's why we had an ironsongOOC channel. I just bring this up to point out that things used to be different and that the guild *does* change over time. IC guild chat used to be a lot more lenient. There was more of an integration of OOC and IC messages at one time, and it worked.

The real purpose behind banning OOC talk from guild chat was the issue of immersion. Some people felt that they wanted to be able to immerse themselves in the IC experience of the game. They would be able to turn all of their channels off except for guild chat, and then basically everything they read would be IC or whispers, and they could pretend to actually “be” their character while in game.

That option may still entice some people, but I don’t really see it practiced very much. The people that have responded so far that want to keep guild chat IC actively subscribe to the IronsongOOC channel and I would say participate in it fairly regularly. So if they have no problem having two different channels open, one for IC and one for OOC then does it really matter which one is guild chat and which one isn’t?

So perhaps a good question would be, are there guild members who would rather turn off the IC channel and just interact with the guild through an OOC guild channel and face-to-face IC interactions? Or perhaps they would prefer to have a channel that is OOC which only guild members would have access to?

Now on the other hand there are those that feel guild chat has become somewhat too restrictive and that in liberalizing it a bit we would breathe new life into it. I could definitely see that seeing how active IronsongOOC is. And with it being a guild channel we can monitor it more closely and actually enforce policies we put into place (like the use of profanity or inappropriate subject matter).

Let’s also keep in mind that the proposal is to allow OOC in guild chat, but people can still keep role-playing in it if they would like to. It gets a little tricky when people don’t know if someone is talking IC or OOC, but like it was originally we could use certain punctuation to separate them.

So essentially, it's boiling down to the viewpoint of "If you RP actively, great! Stay in the guild, join us in guildchat, and keep your OOC to a channel! If you don't RP actively anymore, keep your chatter to the OOC channel, and don't bother those of us who are still RPing and making use of guildchat." I admit it would be interesting to see a more accurate percentage of people who actively participate in guildchat RP. The less-than-subtle perceived hostility to those very tribemates that don't actively RP anymore is disheartening.

I'm getting a bit annoyed at constantly repeating myself and countering some of the same arguments that have popped up, so I'll bring up a new topic: quality of guildchat RP. This is probably not something to bring up here, but I can say that several folks have left because of it. It's also a big reason why I compiled that Big RP Thread so long ago. I believe a lot of folks here are too used to roleplay that would be more appropriate in a story, or solo. Some folks do not take into account proper ways to RP when others are involved - notably, involving meta-gaming, power-gaming, and god-moding. Everyone seems to want their character to be all-powerful, rich beyond belief, fearless, unique bordering on unbelievable, what-have-you. But how can you progress your character if they're already uber or swimming in riches? Once again, I realize I'm opening another can of worms, but this is one of the big reasons why I had stopped really participating in guildchat long ago. It's not really that fun for some when they may be trying to RP something "normal," like a simple (and loyal) warrior of the Horde, or perhaps a sly hunter (but not one who would claim they can shoot a fly from some ungodly distance), when we have other people who are all-powerful seers/warlords (not Sreng)/assassins/DKs/lords/etc. (the aforementioned was ordered randomly - I'm not pointing fingers) who insinuate they could wave a finger and the normal folks would allegedly be knocked over.
Once again, I'll say that we have had people leave because of the degradation of RP in guildchat. In some cases, it may have been covered by the desire to reform a guild or the like, but... that reason was still there.

It's fairly obvious this is a rather divisive issue - I'll echo Mir's statements that it's generally those who are happy with the status quo (with most of those being active in GC), versus others. I haven't yet seen legitimate counters to the benefits the switch could provide, of which Mir touched on (some of which I hadn't even thought about). One comment was that the quality of members would immediately degrade, and we'd somehow ignore our tenets and allow people who speak l33t and whatnot. If quality control is something that may be a concern, I could easily step up to the role, but this would have to be accomplished both OOCly (with the quality of people) and ICly (with the quality of roleplay).

Something to note - yesterday, I spoke with someone who's RP seemed ridiculous to me. For a long time, their story was unbelievable and irksome to me. It took a -lot- of beating around the bush and courage to finally approach them directly (I was quite worried about the person responding in anger and taking an immediate defensive stance), asking them to explain the story and their choices as to why it was how it was. It turns out it was for legitimate OOC reasons, and now, although I'm still not convinced as to the legitimacy of the background, I can completely understand the OOC reasoning and concerns that led to it. This is a very rare case, especially considering many people choose storylines that would make their characters sound and be awesome, or special snowflakes. I am quite pleased that the player was open to elaborate their story and didn't take offense to my questioning when I expressed my concerns, but I do not expect as much in any future cases. This is exactly why I have stayed quiet the past few years and simply remained detached from the guild.

Speaking of detachment, this is exactly what happens with many of those who do not RP in guildchat. How many people do you know or socialize with whom are usually quiet in guildchat? While some folks are also active in OOC, what is the difficulty in turning the built-in channel for the guild into a venue where the -most people- can participate? I still have not heard a legitimate argument for this - only debate about why they don't want it to happen, or the concern that it'll degrade the guild (which I've already mentioned earlier).

(Edit: And curse you, Dentik, for responding while I was compiling this.)

To add on (I'll merge this into the previous topic shortly), as Dentik said, we pride ourselves on our family-friendly and social aspects, in addition to the RP. I am aware that some folks either cannot or refuse to acknowledge those who have either been RPing less or simply have redirected their pursuit in the game. If we are to remain as we are, we essentially (not so subtly) encourage them to leave the fold and join another guild. The same goes for those who are joining not so much for the RP, but to be with either friends or raidmates. Some may put more of an effort forth than others, but as has been said before, we are rather exclusive when it comes to those who don't have RP as a big focus of their gaming.

Kretol Wrote:This is a very rare case, especially considering many people choose storylines that would make their characters sound and be awesome, or special snowflakes.

As an Iron-Singer, I feel it is my responsibility to help people not be this way.

Not to sound rude here, but characters should not be some special snowflake, or some perfect mary-sue (example):


This is not you.

The quality of the RP within IST is certainly an aspect I wasn't looking at before, Kretol. But I miss the days when a lot of the older IST members would participate actively. It really drove me to want to participate as well. Over time, however, I feel like we've been digging at whatever we can to RP with. It's been some time since a majority of the guild has really enjoyed and taken part in a big, organized RP event. And it doesn't even have to be that. It can be something that is on-going and that people can really work with. The Cataclysm is bringing about *a lot* of change, and it'd be good to see more reaction towards it.

I feel this is another subject entirely, however and if we're going to take the thread in that direction, I'll speak more on it. Also, I didn't want anyone to think I was seperating "raiders" from "RPers". RP and raiding can work hand in hand. I love to raid with IST and I hope Cata brings more of that to us. But I also value the lore and the stories that I can share with others.

Melikar Wrote:

You passed me by one sunny day
Flashed those big brown eyes my way
And oo I wanted you forever more
Now I'm not one that gets around
I swear my feet stuck to the ground
And though I never did meet you before

I said "Hello Mary Sue
Goodbye heart
Sweet Mary Sue
I'm so in love with you
I knew Mary Sue
We'd never part
So Hello Mary Sue
Goodbye heart"

I saw your lips I heard your voice
believe me I just had no choice
Wild horses couldn't make me stay away
I thought about a moonlit night
My arms about good an' tight
That's all I had to see for me to say

I said "Hello Mary Sue
Goodbye heart
Sweet Mary Sue
I'm so in love with you
I knew Mary Sue
We'd never part
So Hello Mary Sue
Goodbye heart"

It could be good...it could be bad.

It sounds like a majority are supportive of the change, but it is certainly a contentious topic.

It sounds like most, if not all people agree, that we need to do something to encourage more RP and make the RP more attractive to a wider group.

I think everyone brought up very valid points from all angles.

We could always try it and see how it goes.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
-Albert Eistein

I've been keeping mostly quiet publicly on this, because I didn't want people who disagreed with me to feel I was jumping on them, but I got to speak privately with other officers about it, to let them know how I feel.

On a side note from this, one that might need its own topic, but was kinda brought up: I wish we felt more comfortable mentioning it to a player when we feel that something is off-kilter about a character. Lord knows I've made some mistakes with my characters that I wish someone had tapped me on the shoulder after I did/wrote/posted it and said "psst, are you sure that actually works?" Once a bad idea is fully incorporated into a storyline, it is much harder to fix. However, I know how stressful it can be to have that sort of confrontation. You never quite know how that person will react to some criticism. It makes me happy to see Ironsingers (because they're the ones I SEE doing it, in their channel ) discussing things with players and helping them avoid some of the pitfalls I've fallen into myself.

So, back to topic. While I understand concerns on differing sides of the discussion, I do come down on the side of the change, mainly because there are people outside of the Tribe that I want to RP with more than when I just run into them face-to-face. The big downside I can see to it is if someone finds out about the channel and decides to grief it, but I'm willing to put up with /ignoring someone from time to time if they're being jerks. I'm not of a mind that we'll become less of an RP Guild, mainly because of the awesome Ironsingers we have right now, that have been promoting some reeeeeally cool storylines lately! As long as we don't burn those players out, I think our RP is actually moving into a very nice...RP!

I would like to toss a long-winded apology out.

I have been actively using the terms "raider" and "RPer" in this thread, but not because I think there needs to be any distinction whatsoever, but it was a dig at the often not-so-subtle behavior over the last year in IST that lead me to think that the guild culture saw these as two different groups. It was a poor choice to perpetuate those titles as opposed and I was wrong to do it, despite my observations that this persists.

Let me see if I can put it into context.

1. I am an avid raider. I work very hard to maximize my contribution to a raid, albeit DPS or healing and have written long , detailed guides on the class boards and done heavy research into the hunter class that I raided with in Wrath. I am competitive about my DPS, ability to control my threat, and the challenges I am participating in. I have moved Phoronid into a focused raiding guild so I minimize my chances to yet again fail to get the expansion raiding titles and benefits.

2. I am also a scarily active roleplayer. I (and Alissandre) drive for 16 hours on average (each way) once a month to go to a weekend full immersion roleplaying game two full states away, I participate in the forum stories and have worked to RP in guild chat, I have full backgrounds for my toons. I have done live action gaming for 20 years, 16 of that on a weekly level. I have highly slowed down my /gu RP because I, honestly, ran out of stories to tell in a "guild hall" setting, and that I could tell with the other 5-7 active RPers.

Unfortunately, I by habit look at the big picture - and saw this division being a poor, but common, language.

I think the big picture is simple. Ironsong in wrath lost much of it's sense of community.

Conclusion: Something needs to change, and I think any call for the status quo only ignores this situation.

Sorry about the double post. I thought these were darn good questions I would take a stab at.

Lucinther Wrote:How is what we have now *broken*?
How is changing the channel structure going to make people feel less disconnected?
Either way we go... there are going to be people feeling very disconnected. Its not really a solution to a problem, its just changing the form that the problem is taking.

"broken"

1. /gu is mostly silent beyond 5-7 members, every so often.
2. Some of our most avid role-players (via forum work or known RP history) have been silent for a year due to wanting a larger canvas to roleplay on.
3. Some of our best IG friends are now, or stayed, out of guild due to wanting far more from this MMORPG then a RP chat room.
4. Newer and returning members don't know each other due to no common activities and not feeling welcome in /gu.
5. /ooc has been exceedingly active, but not what the guild advertises itself as.
6. The game design programming is aimed at raiding or PvP as the big social activity, and it has been socially maligned in IST, either by direct ignoring, or by IST members not taking it seriously to the level of preventing successful activities from happening.
7. A couple of times I have heard real OOC issues with players connected to IST come up, and get mostly ignored or stared at in confusion, due to the limited opportunities to raid in guild, and the general collapse of IST raiding / PvP.

How will it help us feel less disconnected?

1. Not to answer a question with a question, but how many of our KEY members have characters out of guild? (Most)
How many are out of guild due to family guilds, private guilds, close friends, raiding buddies, or other reasons that shouldn't be insulted, but allowed to be a member of the larger IST entire core value (character immersion)?

2. How many players in the realm forums, or in general chat, ask "How is RP on this server?" or "Where can I find RP?"
I would *love* to be able to answer "Hey, Ironsong Tribe has an active RP channel to coordinate and enjoy Horde-Side RP - with lore experts and storylines ready for player need!"

3. Give IST members a purpose that matters more then in the tiny guild chat! We could set up Ironsong area experts, giving *everyone* in guild something to be proud of for RP. "Oh, Dentik is our Druid history expert, let me ask him!" "Oh, Lucinther knows the Forsaken philosophy and would love to share!" "Anca - Big scary ancient godlike beings expert!" etc... (We also would need folks that had various spheres of influence, to be determined)

4. Mature recruitment: We could also then have a recruitment tool that would be subtle and effective, none of this bullcrap spamming of general chat, but people seeking us out who want to get involved in lore and community building, due to sharing the neat RP channel and being able to answer the age old RP question with "Hey, we have one, and you can get involved with no pressure, need to leave the guild with your small children / work mates... though we have a clear recruitment form."

- - -

This all needs a public RP channel as step 1.

Well that was a long read, but I think I have a simple compromise to propose (hopefully I didn't miss someone else suggesting it):

Don't change guildchat at all for the time being, simply add a broad RP channel, encourage people to use it, and see how it goes. Then, after a month or two, revisit this and see how people feel it has worked.

That solution preserves the integrity of guild chat (something I am honestly in favor of) while still "broadening the canvas" for RPing. If the vast majority of RPing moves to the channel then great. Either way no one feels that the sanctity of guildchat has been violated.