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Zulaman question.
#1
Assuming Blizzard doesn't hold off on this patch like it did with 2.2, Zulaman will be coming soon. I know without question both SnG and Vanguard will be heading on in it the second we can.

My question - Come ZA, will these teams at all be given back a forum type area to discuss scheduling, tactics, absences and openings? I understand the need with the changes made to Karazhan lately for there to be a more open forum system, but at the start of Kara for all of us, having a congregated area to discuss between our team members was immensely valuable to have. I see those headed into ZA in our future needing it just as much as we did then for our prospects ahead.

If this has been planned, any idea when we might see it open up so we may work on getting the ball rolling?

I genuinely hope this post doesn't seem so “NO DISCUSSIONZ FOR JOO” oriented, it's not at all my intention.
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#2
Thanks for bringing this up, Sound.

I think we learned a lot from the raid structuring that we ran through Karazhan, and I'd like to take the benefits of that knowledge and apply them to our Zul'aman raid structure.

Lately, we've been rotating a lot of new folks into Karazhan raids, and I think that's great. It seems that most folks who want to see the inside of the place are able to do so on a regular basis, and when problems arise it seems as though they're being addressed fairly handily.

It's hard saying exactly how things will fall with Zul'aman. On the one hand, there's no attunement, so that may mean we have a lot of interested folks. However, without seeing the content it's going to be hard to guage just how much more challenging Zul'aman will be, and how many of our folks will be geared well-enough for it.

I do not want to organize our raiders into discrete teams, but that may be the form it ends up taking. I think it is very important that we continue swapping people around and mixing things up. This should help foster a greater sense of Tribe unity, while preventing the calcification that sometimes made it difficult for new raiders to find room in Karazhan teams.

It's possible that our best bet is to choose a few nights a week to run raids, and let the teams take shape based on peoples' scheduling conveniences. Those with some scheduling flexibility might be so kind as to flip back and forth as to their Raid Night, to make room for others. That's something we could discuss more later.

I think we should maintain one Zul'aman discussion forum. Multiple teams is the inevitable, practical solution, but open communication among all our ZA raiders in one specific locale should help us share both ideas and people. Once again, the name of the game is tribe unity.

Of course, the counter-argument is that this format will hurt our progression. While I agree that we may have a hard time overcoming inertia at the beginning, once people are comfortable it won't make a lick of difference. Based on what I've been seeing in Karazhan lately, we can function as a unit no matter who we're used to raiding with. We'll own this place in our own time, as we have with every other instance we've focused our efforts on.

So to sum up:
One forum
One pool of raiders
Multiple fluid, dynamic teams
[Image: 2426811FELbm.png]
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#3
Zulaman is T5 level items and bosses. People need to be well geared from Gruul/Kara/Heroics or it will not be a very fun place.

Rotating people is a good idea, gets more people in, but they need to be prepared. In Kara you can get a way with bringing a fresh, just keyed 70. Zul I'm afraid will not be lenient in that respect.
[Image: Eatmore.png]
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#4
I'm going to chime in my two cents, try to keep it short and sweet.

As far as a few statements that Sreng made:
"Unified Tribe" --- cool! Seeing people work together, getting to know eachother, I like it, great idea. I've done a few small 5-man instances with some folk in the guild which I've not done stuff before with, or just not in a while, was fun. I still hold that I'd like to get to know people better outside a 10/25 man situation before going into a 10 man raid with them.

"rotating a lot of new folks into karazhan raids" --- yes, we have; "Hey we've got a few slots open here and there" seems that just filling people in as needed into teams worked well to get new people in, but other than that? A few of us have essentially PuGed within the tribe and said "hey we have alts, wanna try to start a group tonight?" and have still had trouble finding enough people... And as far as people wanting to help out, I've noticed a few people who don't want to respec to try to get in, say a possible tank or healing class. Can't find a group because they dont need dps but need healer/tank? Seems there are some people that don't want in that badly.

"hurting progression" --- just hurt? If a sole group cannot go in together and just learn it.. we'll be stuck on the same stage of an instance for who knows how long, I personally don't want to waste my time and repair bill money to learn the same fight eight million times every week to get one or two fights down a week. With multiple set teams we'll have a few groups that work together well, and can learn a raid moderately quickly, rather than learning a new group composition every week, trying to get the fights down again and again every week.. not saying it couldn't be done, just that it will likely take a heck of a lot longer with a lot more frustration. Not particularly what I want to be doing on an evening...

(the part that might come off as harsh, and indeed it is a bit..) -- my main point, there are a handful of us people that would call ourselves more raid/progression oriented than others in the guild (myself included), how on the virtual earth of azeroth is it fair to us when we busted our butts to get keyed for (if you cant get keyed for a 'less hard instance' how do you think you'll do in a harder one?), learned, mastered, got geared up from.... and then just have a few new to 70, quest green geared, person come and partake in an instance that we've all prepared for, for nearly a half a year essentially? It seems to me, that its a little sided in favor to those who will be just starting out..

And then there's the "friday night party crew" idea that kept a lot of us going in karazhan... -- ie: Smash 'n Grab.

to sum mine up:
getting to know other guildies: great. not in a 10 man
rotating people: not seeming to be working all that well.
hurting progression: I want to raid with a set group of people, i want to progress, and do it with a set group.
effort: ezmode for some is great, but leaching off a few's hard work and preparation?
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#5
Oh doom.. my apologies if I just opened up a can of worms.. I just wanted to know if we'd get ZA forums or not. :X

Thanks for the answer on it, Sreng.
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#6
Good thoughts, Vanea! Let's continue to discuss concerns and preferences that folks have, and see if we can't figure out what makes the most sense within the context of this guild! Smile
[Image: 2426811FELbm.png]
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#7
I have always liked having a set team, and the thing I’ve looked forward to about ZA the most is tackling a new place with SnG again! I personally learn best in a static environment. I do not relish the thought of going to a new place and not knowing who I’ll be with... I already don’t know what to expect of the environment, so not knowing what to expect of my teammates makes me a wreck! I know it’s never going to be exactly the same people, and I know that the eventual goal is to give as many people as possible the opportunity to experience the content and have access to new shinies, but especially at the beginning, I think some consistency is vital.

Given that this is new, difficult, and largely unknown content, I think it is important that we establish a solid base and then begin branching out. Which is to say, have perhaps two teams of well-geared and experienced raiders practicing and learning ZA, and continuing to have people running Karazhan in an effort to get more and a wider variety of people better geared and more accustomed to working in a smaller raid environment. Then, with the experience and strategies of the existing teams at the disposal of everyone else, beginning to bring through more people who are ready, on a rotation basis, or even on a training basis, to give them a feel for the encounters, hopefully a few gear upgrades, and the ability to perhaps even lead through a few raids, or eventually form a whole ‘nother team. That leads to another point....

ZA is on a shorter timer than Karazhan, and while I have (intentionally) not done a great deal of reading about it, I expect things will move faster and take less time than Kara, therefore promoting more runs and allowing for a wider variety of schedules than Kara did. While there might be teams who run through twice a week, there will also likely be a lot of people who can’t commit to a set schedule, or work with the existing schedules. Perhaps the shorter reset time will be make it friendlier to more casual groups... perhaps set people who get together once or twice a month, perhaps “guild pugs” where appropriately geared people go take a run at it as a one-time thing, or even a scheduled run. There are a lot of possibilities for this stage, and it’s pretty much speculation at this point, as none of us know what it will be like just yet. Just kind of throwing ideas out.

A final point – it is still important for anyone who wants to be a part of this sort of thing to tend to their gear. Bringing someone though in very poor gear isn’t going to be as feasible as it is with Kara, although this might become easier in time as the “core groups” become better geared and better able to compensate for lack of gear in others. There are some very, very nice quest rewards in Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstorm... grab a group of 3-4 and run through all those group quests (I always have a character needing some of those done, so hit me up if you see me around). Heroics offer gear comparable to a lot of the items from Karazhan, and many of the faction vendors sell really nice items. There are also –very- good craftable items for nearly every class and spec imaginable. I’m not the only person who has multiple 375 tailors – your armor class crafting profession often gives some of the best gear you can get. Pick it up if you haven’t already. Ask for help – I’ve found this to be an amazingly giving bunch of people.

Okay, off my gearing-yourself-up soapbox. ;D


I think this can work in a way that is beneficial to everyone, and to most everyone’s satisfaction.

Ninjaing the handy little summary format:
-Have set raiding groups for ZA
-Continue to run Kara groups to get more people experienced and geared
-Bring “new” people through ZA as there are openings
-Bring more people through more often as the pool of experienced/geared people grows
-Form new groups with a wider variety of schedules
-Lots of mojo and fun and shinies for all
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#8
I think Sreng's point was a bit more ambiguous and free-form than his closing points would suggest. The Karazhan issue was largely fixed through awareness of the problem, and less through formal structure. All groups made it a goal to get more people inside and see more of their Tribemates, and it has been working for the most part.

We are well aware of the gear requirements for Zul'Aman, and trust me when I say no one who is new to 70 should be going there. No one is going to force that on anyone either.

You guys have the right idea with getting Tribemates through Karazhan and then working them in. And the reason for that can even be purely pragmatic. Look at the current groups. Last friday half of the original entourage team was missing, Oryx and Zlinka are having a baby any time now, SnG is missing many original members simply from burnout or school, Vanguard is the same. Life goes on for people, and ultimately you need replacements.

If we all do our best to have a good time and keep the greater goals that Sreng has suggested at heart, then we won't need another dozen pages of pent up tension based on a bad idea. Wink

Now Vanea, something I want to point out:

Vanea Wrote:(the part that might come off as harsh, and indeed it is a bit..) -- my main point, there are a handful of us people that would call ourselves more raid/progression oriented than others in the guild (myself included), how on the virtual earth of azeroth is it fair to us when we busted our butts to get keyed for (if you cant get keyed for a 'less hard instance' how do you think you'll do in a harder one?), learned, mastered, got geared up from.... and then just have a few new to 70, quest green geared, person come and partake in an instance that we've all prepared for, for nearly a half a year essentially? It seems to me, that its a little sided in favor to those who will be just starting out..

I understand this sentiment, but you need to also understand that it is ultimately a logical fallacy that is doomed to failure. You have raided X instance for 6 months. You suggest that you then only want to raid X instance with others who have put in that much time. The problem is, it's freaking TIME. Smile Unless someone can raid that instance for 9 months while you're raiding it for 3 months, they are never going to catch up. That means no one outside of the people who started when you did will ever meet your criteria.

So basically yeah, our rules will favor those who have not been gifted with an uncanny ability to compress time. :lol:

But look man, the bottom line is, of course we know you guys are going in there with SnG at the start. We're just saying use the group forum when you need replacements, make an effort rotate people in (with the appropriate gear) when you get things figured out, and work together with other guildmates when you can to make things a Tribal accomplishment. And please, try not to sound like a certain repressed peasant in "that movie" every time we ask for comraderie. Wink
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
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#9
PRE-LONGBORINGPOST REMINDER: Alt-Tab and type: /join IronsongLFG Once you're done, come back. Pretty please with gnomes on top?

Quote:Good thoughts, Vanea! Let's continue to discuss concerns and preferences that folks have, and see if we can't figure out what makes the most sense within the context of this guild

Well Sreng'jin, since you asked :lol: I know the ZA raiding isn't going to be non-Kara geared folks jumping into it, but it's still a hard sell to me with trying to rotate new folks in. I'm not even sure that having less-geared raiders going to ZA will happen, so I'm dubious this will even be an issue. So my concern is more general, mostly with Gruul's Lair, and SSC/Eye once we've got enough folks to do them outside of the EndGame raid that Bloodbound is running.

Quote:And please, try not to sound like a certain repressed peasant in "that movie" every time we ask for comraderie

I do want to say that it's still a bit frustrating having "Tribe unity" being a major thing for raiding. IST isn't a raiding guild, never has been, never will be. The focus of the guild is on the squishier side of gameplay - roleplaying and having fun that way. It's why most of us are part of IST. It's certainly why I'm here - I like to roleplay. But I also like to raid. Things like 10-man and 25-man raiding are the mechanics side of gameplay - RP doesn't matter a whit, it comes down to gear, dedication to learning your class and other classes, and learning the instance. For me, since I'm not in one of the IST raiding groups, this comes into effect in Gruul's Lair. When some of our DPS folks that are well-geared double the damage of non-geared folks, that makes the raid less fun for everyone because the fight is basically just a DPS race. Either you have the gear or you don't. If we can down Gruul in three attempts instead of eight by picking up out-of-guild raiders, I don't think you'll find many folks that will honestly say they'd rather have Tribe Unity being supported over raiding readiness for the raid members.

Nobody will disagree that getting to know new Tribemates and having fun with them isn't a laudable goal, and one that most folks will persue. I still want to run the learning raid for Karazhan once Dromand is geared up better (he's almost there, woot!), specifically for the more RP-oriented players in the guild to get a shot at the mechanics side of things. I think that's important, but it's also something I put in it's own discrete category, rather than lumping it into general raiding. For that raid, if you show up with a wide-eyed look of terror, nobody's going to mind, because that's expected. Heck, I'd call it encouraged :o

I'd rather meet new Tribemates and foster tribe unity through roleplaying, since we're a roleplaying guild. I've been running a /lot/ of instances with Dromand, trying to get him rep to get him geared up and such, and that's been fun, when I can actually get Tribemates to come. I'm averaging maybe 2 IST members in the groups, and that's mostly because Testsumis is doing the same thing I am with his healadin. Helping teach folks who are very much RP-oriented rather than mechanics-oriented is nice to be able to do in a non-Heroic, but honestly, I really don't want to have to do that in Heroics or raids. Imo, folks should already be at that point. Having folks hoping to go to Gruul's Lair but not wanting to do 5-man instances to get rep and gear makes me want to poke people with pointy sticks.

Dromand has been trying to get people to do group quests in nearly ANY zone for about 5 days now. Ditto for trying to find people for 5-man instances. I've had almost *nothing* in responses from Tribemates outside the raiding crew offering to help me out, and those same people that need the quests with alts. Tribe Unity is awesome, but it'd be much awesomer (that's a new word, as of now) if it was strongly encouraged outside of raiding too. Personally, and I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, I'd feel a lot better about us "raiders" helping non-raiders out by easing them into raiding if we could see people helping themselves out of raiding.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
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#10
<sigh> Logros, please stop dividing people into raiders and non-raiders. It reminds me too much of the "casual vs. raider" arguments that dominated the Blizzard forums for so long. While there are people who take varying levels of interest in the mechanics of the game, I think we have all seen enough of various raid guilds to know that "raider" sure as hell doesn't mean "competent".

As for the focus on raiding unity, I think Zlinka put it best in her post in that huge thread started by me. We are not a raiding guild, but we are an RP guild that raids. Unity comes from overcoming challenges together. That was easier to do prior to the expansion, and even then "raiders" swore it couldn't be done by RPers. Actually, come to think of it, nearly every major tenet of successful raiding that most people swear by has been disproven by us at one point or another.

Anyway, I will agree there has been far too much focus on talking about it lately, and I will gladly get back to supporting more RPing.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
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#11
One of the concerns raised about an open policy for ZA is that gear won't be "good enough," but we don't have any sort of standard by which to measure. How about we establish some class/spec-specific benchmarks for being "raid qualified" for both Karazhan and Zul'Aman? For example, to tank Karazhan a warrior should have 490 defense, 10,000 armor and 10,000 health. To get slotted as a DPS caster, she should have at least 600 damage in her chosen spell school, etc.

This would give folks just starting out something to shoot for, and it would give the established raiders the peace of mind of knowing that new members of a group have shown the commitment necessary to prepare for raiding higher instances.
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#12
Kosath Wrote:<sigh> Logros, please stop dividing people into raiders and non-raiders. It reminds me too much of the "casual vs. raider" arguments that dominated the Blizzard forums for so long.

Perhaps a better way to look at it, without bringing in outside connotations, would just be straight gear, as Psion suggests. An objective 'standard' might be easier for everyone to deal with.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
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#13
Gear thresholds would be perfectly fine and we did them in MC for certain encounters, especially around tanking and more generally fire resistance.

It eliminates the negativity and makes things clear for folks rather than someone like me whose been to two bosses in Karazhan in one evening in total as my raid experience in TBC feeling unwelcome despite having 8k health and mana and +900 shadow damage.

Tae
"She is a soothsayer. She’s a mystic. She is a witch doctor, able to see into people’s hearts and minds. She’s also touched by the elements." -Naomie Harris
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#14
Quote:But we don't have any sort of standard by which to measure.

I alway thought there was a pretty clear standard. It has already been said that it is a t5 dungeon, which would mean by the blizzard teirs you would need to be mostly in t4 gear or equal function (kara). To know what is good enough for the next teir is truly the duty of the player and not so much the people running the raid. Yes the raid leaders need to know so they can make sure they have the essential odds and ends, but it is the persons duty to make sure they are at the peak of their game. If the person had a total grasp of the progression, they would have done their homework and already plotted ahead what would be needed as their class/spec. Yes that changes a lot, it takes a bit of the responsibility for the raid off the leaders and puts it on the player. But I always saw the leaders as the ones that gave us the strats, it was up to the raid members to make sure they were up to the part of doing the job.
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