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Rolling on weapons
#1
Last night I rolled against a Paladin healer for a Two-Handed DPS weapon (his offspec) and lost. We were both using weighted rolls.

I am not trying to stir anything up..but how is it fair to DK's and Warriors??? Paladins,Druids,and Shaman can all use weighted rolls on dps OR healing weapons?? Meaning they have a choice??? Not cool.. I was told after he won the weapon that he cannot roll on any more healing gear that evening.. That made me feel SO much better to know he cannot roll on gear I cannot use.

The Paladin that won the weapon put it in his pack and continued healing...I would have gated to the DK's training area and enchanted it and immediately upping my dps in the raid..It was not only bad for me,it was bad for the raid in a way.

DK's can only use Two-Handed dps weapons (they nerfed duel weilding so bad is is /fail to duel weild now)...and Most Warriors need TWO-Two handed dps weapons..So why are you letting healers roll on this stuff??

These weapons should only being rolled on by dps..If dps is not their main spec then they have NO BUSINESS rolling (weighted) on this stuff.Period.The Paladin that beat me spends WAY more of his time healing.

So by this logic...Can a Warrior or a Rogue roll against Hunters for guns and bows??

Weapon loot rules need an update.Bad.

Complaint logged.

Bovi
#2
If the paladin was *normally* Ret, then it would be okay for them to roll. Sometimes they have to go healy if the raid is missing a spot.

However, you say this was his offspec. I believe you certainly would get more use from the sword than a holy paladin. Therefor, I believe you should've had first priority. But this is just my opinion. For example, that nice bow dropped last night and both the hunters rolled. If I had rolled, and won, that would be the equivalent of what happened to you. Even if the stats were onspec for a warrior, really...how often would I use that compared to a hunter?

Personally, I think the loot system we have is great. I just wish we had more of a "whoever will get the better use from it" kind of rule. Also, playing a paladin can be tough. I claim to have Kardwel's onspec as Holy and Ret as his offspec. But I enjoy playing both specs so much that it's hard for me to just stick with one as my main. Holy for raiding and Ret for PvP. It can be a tough choice. But as I said, this is all just my opinion.

Discussing this with Jaba would be the better option and hopefully we can get something worked out. Also, hopefully a nice two-hander drops for you again. I know how awful it feels to lose a roll on something you really could use as an upgrade.
[Image: AWOeJWn.png]
#3
Do you know for a fact that he heals most of the time? Because last night we specifically asked him to heal when he was going to DPS.

This issue only ever comes up with weapons it seems, because people decide to save their roll for that one upgrade. I realize there was nothing else in Naxx for you specifically, but in Ulduar as well? Our loot system works best when people don't save their roll. It's statistically proven as a matter of fact. And once you get a 91, it feels like you're "spending it" on something else, so you're even more inclined to hang onto it for that one thing you want. Obsessions like that have led to a lot of disappointment.

Our loot system with regard to weapons is already specific in that people are limited to one two-hander until everyone has one (unless you want the fury warriors dual wielding worldcarvers before you get one), and that hunters roll offspec on melee weapons. There was at least one hunter who would have been rolling against you on that as well, probably 3.

Dual specs put a kink in our system that we've dealt with as fairly as we can. Paladins and warriors have probably profited by it a bit, but it's the only way to do it fairly for people who are forced to fill specific roles so the raid will work.

The bottom line is that our loot system already limited your competition to ONE other person and you lost the roll. Yes, it sucks for you, but we're not changing things because of one two-hander. It's the 4th one we've gotten in Ulduar, and the first one you were there for. I think the odds were already well stacked in your favor.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
#4
I would check and see what their main spec is before registering a complaint about loot.
#5
Having raided with many guilds, run raids in many guilds, and chosen and administered many loot systems I would like to give a little perspective. There is no perfect loot system. The best loot system is the one that works the best for the most people. I understand your pain, I was using a heroic tanking sword and a heroic 2 hander for my weapons until this weeks 10 man Ulduar. But having also been in a position where I have needed to switch back and forth between specs for raids (this was prior to Daichallar and Amato going on hiatus) I feel that it is only fair that if someone performs multiple jobs that they can divide their loot accordingly. In the case of that particular weapon, you were not the only person who lost out. That 2 hander had agil, stam, crit and AP which are all hunter stats, and no strength. 2H weapons are one of those pieces of gear that will always be in demand. It is really hard to quantify who would find a piece of gear more beneficial, the only way you can really do that effectively is by loot council, and I assure you that can create far more drama than the current system, because everyone has a different opinion. Stay the course and over the weeks we will have more drops and the system will smooth itself out.
In the meantime I think that if we want to try to improve the situation in the future, push Blizzard to balance the loot tables more for in demand items. There are far more people looking for DPS plate and 2H weapons since the expansion, and I think they planned poorly for the raid distributions when they set up the loot tables. Also if you do have suggestions for how the system can be improved I've always found the officers to be very considerate of my opinions, try to be clear about how it can be changed and what the percieved benefits are.
-Donalzon

“He lives not long who battles with the immortals, nor do his children prattle about his knees when he has come back from battle and the dead fray.”

Homer, The Iliad
#6
Kosath Wrote:There was at least one hunter who would have been rolling against you on that as well, probably 3.

.

THAT..is retarded...no offense..but this is a huge flaw in your loot system in my opinion..They should only get a Two-Hander like that if it is not a PRIMARY weapon upgrade for another class.God especially for DK's and Fury Warriros come ON!!! Seriously?? You are going to give what is basicly an OFF HAND UPGRADE to a Hunter over a dpsers MAIN WEAPON?????? It was bad enough losing it to someone who ISNT dpsing all the time..but a HUNTER??? Yeah Hunters melee so much in a raid.. /sigh

So by the same logic a Warrior or Rogue can take a choice gun or bow for his off hand over a Hunters MAIN dps source??? That is redicoulas.Please tell me there are talks trying to change this really bad flaw in an otherwise great loot system.

I am sorry but that is not very wise in my opinion..

I understand that some of us have 2 jobs in here..and we need gear for both..Please keep in mind however that some of us only have ONE job,and I do not think it is fair that some classes get to use weighted rolls on their off-spec even though they have 2 jobs in the raid...I NEVER heal..I ONLY dps and tank..and there are no tanking weapons for DK's..The dps weapons are the same as we use our own rune enchanting to distiguish what the weapon will do.DK's and Fury Warriors and Ret Paladins (WHO ONLY DPS) should get priority on Two-Handers.Yes even over the people who do both jobs..




Bovi
#7
Upon further research I found more disheartening news..I found out that the "Runes Edge" is the worst dps upgrade for a Ret Paladin (for PvE) amongst the mighty weapons,and it is a way better upgrade for a DK according to <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.maxdps.com">www.maxdps.com</a><!-- w -->.

My ret Paladin roomate and friend who is an awesome ret pally looked at me funny when I told him what happend, and he said "But that isnt even a good weapon for a ret,its the worst 25 raid Two Hander for a Ret there is" He then looked it up on the above websight and showed me.He explained to me its because the agility doesnt do really anything for them..It was THE worst weapon for a ret..but one of the best for a DK.. This weapon would actually even suit a Hunter better than a Ret Paladin according to maxdps.

Could someone also please explain to me why if a weighted roll is tied,why do they not simply re-roll the weighted rolls?? Why do the parties roll from 1-100?? This all of a sudden evens the playing field in the favor of someone who is new to the raid, or to someone who HAS RECENTLY WON SOMETHING.. Yet more /fail in my opinion.

I have been saving my roll for a weapon upgrade because it is the biggest upgrade I need for both the raid and PVP.. I am covered in Naxx25 gear and the armor upgrades are good but not near as dramatic as a weapon upgrade will be for me. The difference between the weapon upgrade and armor upgrade is night and day..

Also..I pass on a lot of dps gear because there are many people in the raid who are doing way less dps than me and they need gear more than I do..Anyone that knows me knows I am not a gear slut and this raid is not about gear for me,and this rant is not because I lost my chance at some gear.I have won several things only to pass to someone who needed it more many,many times.Not only in our IST raid but in other raids I have been with in the past. I have been saving my roll for the good of the raid as well.

I simply think weapons are distributed with a huge lack of awareness of the bigger picture,and I think something smarter needs to be implemented.Hunters getting Two-Handers over DK's and Fury Warriors simply does not make any sense to me...and giving a choice gun or bow to anyone over a Hunter is /fail bigtime.

This is really simple. You roll on your primary spec..If it is half and half then you STILL need to pick one spec..None of this "2 job" crap..Yes people will still be needing to do 2 jobs for the good of the raid..but they STILL NEED TO PICK A PRIMARY SPEC...I have been tanking lately in the raid..Doing 2 jobs and though it doesnt matter with weapons cause I am a DK and Two-Handed dps is the only logical thing to roll on for me...I am rolling off-spec on tanking gear.

So the Paladin in question needs to pick a spec and tell the raid leaders what it is...He should not be able to "change it on the fly" just cause he has a dual role at times in a raid. If you change your primary spec then you need to let the raid leaders know well before anything drops. This is a no brainer..

With the current system a Paladin can roll on 2 specs with a weighted roll..Or I guess anyone can if they happen to do more than one thing in the raid.This is hardly fair to the classes that only ever have one job..rolling on the SAME GEAR!!!!


Bovi
#8
This topic is locked for the time being to let cooler heads prevail. Take a break from this subject for a bit. I'd rather chill this discussion for a little while than see people get riled up enough to push against our Code of Conduct, which is far more important than anything to do with loot.

Thanks,
Tae/Kuskuh
"She is a soothsayer. She’s a mystic. She is a witch doctor, able to see into people’s hearts and minds. She’s also touched by the elements." -Naomie Harris
#9
Bovi Wrote:
Kosath Wrote:There was at least one hunter who would have been rolling against you on that as well, probably 3.

.

THAT..is retarded...no offense..but this is a huge flaw in your loot system in my opinion..They should only get a Two-Hander like that if it is not a PRIMARY weapon upgrade for another class.God especially for DK's and Fury Warriros come ON!!! Seriously?? You are going to give what is basicly an OFF HAND UPGRADE to a Hunter over a dpsers MAIN WEAPON?????? It was bad enough losing it to someone who ISNT dpsing all the time..but a HUNTER??? Yeah Hunters melee so much in a raid.. /sigh

So by the same logic a Warrior or Rogue can take a choice gun or bow for his off hand over a Hunters MAIN dps source??? That is redicoulas.Please tell me there are talks trying to change this really bad flaw in an otherwise great loot system.
As a side note, you seem to be taking what he said out of context. We already have a rule regarding melee & hunter weapons:
12. Priority for ranged weapons for ranged classes, and for melee weapons for melee classes.
Read here.


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