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Recap of last nights BWL discussion
I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page with this, so I decided to post what was said regarding BWL last night, and our recent attendance issues. The two main points are as follows:

1) We will continue to schedule BWL for every wednesday until the Burning Crusade is released. We know we can beat Razorgore with enough people, but we won't throw away repair money on attempts with too few. If we have enough, we go. If not, we don't.

2) If we do not kill anything in BWL by January 16th (Burning Crusade release), it ultimately doesn't hurt us. I want to kill Nefarion before that time as much as many others do, but we are not a guild based on progression, and if we don't, it's honestly not a big deal. It just means people have chosen to spend their time somewhere else, and that is fine.

Some people expressed concern about the statement "until the burning crusade is released". This does not mean we won't be going to Blackwing Lair after that point, it means the schedule will change. To what, we do not know yet. It may be that we hold off raids for a time while people enjoy the new content. There are no "raid zones" between 60 and 70, just like there are none prior to 60. We will not be in any hurry to rush to 70... there is a lot to see, and I suggest we all enjoy it.

An important thing to note: We will, at some point, hold 40-man raids of ALL pre-BC content. We are an RP guild, and these are places to explore and battle the enemies of our people. It only makes sense. They will not be our focus, but we will do them... the entire point of Ironsong raiding is to improve the quality of life of our members and allow everyone to experience all the content the game has to offer at our own pace. No one needs to worry about missing something.

Thanks for reading. If anyone has any additional questions please feel free to post.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
Lots of valid points Kosath.

First off, I'm very proud of the Tribe and taking the step of venturing into the Lair as well as defeating Ragnaros in the Core. I'm sure lots of goodies and fun await us under the wings of the dragons.

No disrespect meant to anyone in the Tribe, however I'm a little downed by the attendance to the fight against Razorgore, I don't think that time is much of an issue for people, as we're finishing down in the core within an hour-ish of first pull. I know everyone has their reasons for leaving, but I'd hope that no-one has the "I don't want to wipe three times and have a moderately high repair bill" as an excuse for not going. I'm a bit afraid that once we do get Razorgore down (which will happen 8-) ), there will be a wait list a mile long to join the next week's raid. It's pretty disrespectful towards those who attended every (or nearly every) attempt/week without enough attendance, for some members to not make an effort learning the fight to just hop on the bandwagon and leech off others blood, sweat and tears.

I've seen a few possible encouragements for those to attend (as though downing a new boss isn't enough!) But the one I feel is the most viable, would be an incentive -- such as adding 5 to the weighted roll in MC (since we're still using the same roll for MC/BWL).

As far as being an RP Guild, not focusing on progression, I understand that raiding isn't our primary concern. And we're a closely knit bunch of players/characters because of it. It keeps the game fun! But so does downing new bosses, seeing new (to us and already exsisting) content, first time downing Ragnaros?

Anyway.. just my $0.02.
I am quite guilty of being one of those who doesn't want to spend the night wiping. I have a very low frustration threshold (as many who know me can attest to) and am prone to tizzy-fits.

In Molten Core I was more-or-less willing to wipe and learn because there it is a fairly simple fight - one person not doing there job right (like an errant shadowpriestess) doesn't hurt the group. If a priest dies I can step in and heal, if a dpser dies I keep doing my job. I have some means of control.

In BWL one person doing something wrong (or a bad random spawn) wipes a corner and then wipes the raid and I have no power to prevent that, change it or stop it. I don't like that feeling of powerlessness. And Neffarion is only a million times worse.

Plus I really hate the Razorgore fight and am not enjoying myself there - consequently I will probably not go again.

Flu's tens cents worth. That and a dollar will buy you a soda.
I would like to keep this as a positive thing guys. I didn't make this thread as a place to air complaints and frustrations.

When considering that we may not clear BWL and still be perfectly fine, I realize I am honestly quite proud of that fact. It shows a true strength of the Tribe.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
I'm going to reply to myself because I've gotten the impression there are some misunderstandings based on this post. We are not giving up on BWL.

It took us a while to perfect the right strategy for us, and as soon as we figured it out, our numbers dropped off and we haven't been able to give it an honest attempt again. I will repeat that: we figured out the right strategy for us to win, and then many people stopped coming.

Reasons for that are varied I'm sure, and I never want people raidng who don't want to be there. We will not stop trying, but we will also not pressure people to go. It's unhealthy for the person and for the Tribe as a whole.

Just wanted to clarify that for any who feel the officers may not be giving BWL enough of an effort.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
I think that part of it, at least, is due to timing. I'm not sure what's changed, really. It used to be that if I got off work a little early, I would be just in time to join up and get summoned before we started BWL. Now by the time I get home the entire thing has been called off.

At least, that's my perspective on it.

On another note, I would just like to add that a friend of mine who has been doing BWL for a long time has told me on many occasions that if we can get past Razor and Vael, most of the rest of the instance is easy to do. BWL is a front-loaded instance, for the most part.
Definetly, if you go from hardest to easiest, Vael and Razor are right at the top, and pretty much everything else is pretty easy.

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