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I am just posting this just to spark some conversation on a particular topic that isnt a priority in Ironsong but something that has been openly pushed.

I will start with this:

"I remember a time when Ironsong can clear molten core, with a wipe on Majordomo, and several wipes on Ragnaros but ultimately the Ironsong Buff "Last Attempt" kicks in with a victory and cheers from 40 members...thats right....the cheers of 40 members of the Ironsong Tribe echoing in the caves of Molten Core. Not 20, not 30, but 40."

With that said....I have rarely seen Ironsong fill a 25 man raid. On the odd occasion even a 10 man. Have we lost so many members that we cannot accomplish even that? Has blizzard made these raids so gear dependant that we close our doors to those that just hit 70? Molten Core was difficult, however we always had the more geared members picking up the slack and there were many more to do so. Ironsong in my opinion is at the point that we could almost run Karazhan with our eyes closed.

Many of Ironsong have moved onto the raids of other guilds (I think, dont quote me on that) in order to satisfy their own desire for gear and progression which is by no means wrong or bad, but has put them far beyond those that are still just moving into Zul'Aman. Does this leave the rest behind? Does the intrest of those that have progressed further wane in the light of doing a Magtheridons Lair or Gruuls? Some of you have opted to aid others by running raids for the rest of the guild which in turn helps us all. Others have on occasion joined us in our conquests.

Because so many of us our spread out doing our on things, scheduling raids during the week is practically impossible. Weekends it would seem are better times, however given the season I have not seen very many people around. Do we put things on hold until fall/winter? Do we try and reschedule things during the week which will ultimately conflict with others in more advanced raids?

Have we lost sight of "team building through raids" for better gear and the sake of progression?

Just some thoughts....anyone else care to comment?

(Sorry if this touched anyone in a personal way, It was not inteded to)
Anything past Karazhan/Gruuls/Mags requires gear, and experience in harder fights. I frequently lead Gruuls/Mags, and for those, as long as we've got a core of overgeared folks, new 70's are fine. For Kara, same thing - if the tank and healers are well-geared, DPS can be lackluster.

ZA and beyond aren't the same. Yes, you can kill bosses in ZA with a low level of gear, but you're not going to make timers, and that means you're probably looking at 3, maybe 4 pieces of loot for the entire evening, and 5 or 7 badges. That really doesn't do much to gear up the raid, but it *is* great raid experience. Mix that with Kara, and you've got a good progression basis going. Kara is a gajillion pieces of loot, and 22 badges - that does a lot to gear up the raid, although it's not going to teach you a lot for raiding. Heroics are quick, and if it's the daily, that's 5+ badges.

If folks want to raid and progress, then they need to take some initiative, and get into Kara. They need to go to Heroics, and get gear, badges, and experience with tougher content. Join the IronsongLFG channel and ask around. Kara means going with Kosath or Jabadue, who are constantly in need of people, or starting up a new raid, and getting people. Heroic Magister's Terrace is pretty comparable to the difficulty of Zul'Aman - if you can handle Heroic MTr, then you'll likely do ok at timed ZA.

Raiding means some effort. Put that effort in, and I think you'll be surprised at how many of us 'raiders' will be happy to help out, and make the raid successful. I've said basically the same thing as everything above in at least 2 other threads that have come before this - without more folks stepping up to take leadership and responsibility, not much changes.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
For myself...well after a lot of frustration I finally joined Eternity with Grommash back in march. My game time is spent in those raids, so I don't have time or my schedule conflicts with almost every other raid. Ironsong has lost a lot of its core players from the MC days, including several officers, or Life has come in and taken a lot of game time away from officers and many players in general.

I give props to Kosath for sticking with it. Even with the numbers lacking, he still keeps his Karazhan raid going, and often shows up for gruul/mags.

As far as the topic at hand goes, we did fine in MC that way. But remember our few attempts in BWL? MC, ZG, Ony and eventually AQ20 were the karazhan/gruul/mags of those days. I dunno.

As far as gear requirements: Kara gear is a huge step up from blues. after that it is small steps in gear. We just cleared Black Temple in Eternity, but many of us are still in partial karazhan gear. Gear has a factor, yes, but like I have said many times, it is raid coordination. A set group of people will go much MUCH further than a group that is always switching people out because they learn to anticipate exactly what is needed and what everyone else will do or is capable of doing. Especially in high coordination fights (which most are in SSC, TK, hyjal, and BT). Gear can partially cover this if it is lacking, but it won't get you through everything.

So, to sum up: it was the same back in the day as it is now except that we can't field the numbers to fill a raid now.
"Passion and shame torment him, and rage is mingled with his grief."

[Image: playerfeed_1902018_bigsig.gif]
I think that, with the number of experienced raiders in IST that have worked hard to learn the fights in SSC and beyond (with "other" raids), that IST shouldn't have -too- much trouble progressing, at least most of the way, through the T5 content.

The big problem, it seems, is finding people to actually do it. There are a few folks who seem excited to move on, progress through new content, but there needs to be a commitment. Maybe not have a set roster of 25 people every raid, but you need at least 20 people to show up!

The bad spiral that I see is this: folks give up time on their weekend to come to a raid, expecting others will do the same. Raid doesn't happen because enough people didn't show up. Next week, fewer folks come because they realize there's a chance the raid won't happen and their time will be wasted if they show up.

For an example of how we do it in Bloodbound, that seems to work pretty well for us:
  • We have two 25-man raids, each running one night of the week. One is our "premier" raid, End Game, whose members are the best geared and most experienced we have access to. This raid punches into the hardest content, admittedly more slowly than raiding guilds like Eternity, but with one night a week, we do alright. Smile
  • The other is our regular 25-man raid, which is currently working on Kael'thas. The gear and preparation expectations for this raid are similar to End Game, but we focus on instances that require more coordination/finesse than DPS and take people who might not be completely geared, so long as they can follow directions.
  • Both of our 25-man raids have a permanent roster of 25 people who will always be able to go, if they show up. At the same time, they are required to show up every week, or let someone know if they can't. If they can't show up consistently, they give up their permanent spot and take alternate positions as available. Alternate positions are almost always available, because out of 25 people, a few ARE going to be missing every week.
  • Finally, we try to run a ZA raid every Sunday for people who don't have raiding experience and are looking for more of a challenge than Kara. ZA is a GREAT way to learn how to raid, as the fights there are technical enough to challenge but not too technical that a new person can't learn them on their first night.[/list:u]

    This leaves a very clear path for a 'new' raider in our guild to progress. Basic gear is easy for anyone who is serious about raiding to obtain, now that almost every slot can be filled in with badge loot. They start by showing up for ZA. If they're new, the more experienced raiders will organize a way for them to participate, either by stepping out themselves or shuffling members as needed. After a few weeks in ZA, we can tell if they're picking up on things or need some serious help, either gear or strategy wise.

    Once we're convinced they would be able to hold their own in a 25-man raid, they start showing up as alternates, and going nearly every week but missing out on a raid here and there because a position wasn't open. Eventually, a permanent raid member has to give up their spot for one reason or another (turnover for us is something like...1 a month) and the new raider who fits that role takes the permanent spot.

    The big things it requires is commitment on the part of permanent raiders, and patience on the part of new raiders. Both of those things are going to be necessary traits for a successful raider, so if someone is too impatient to wait a month or two for a permanent position in a raid, they certainly don't have the patience to learn some of the fights they'll be coming up against or wait for that piece of gear they've been hoping for.

    I guess my last point on this is that...the only people who haven't made it through this 'system' are the ones who are too stubborn to learn. Anyone who comes ready to learn and patient enough to wait their turn, ends up as a part of our 25-man raids. It works, and it doesn't disrupt the "family" atmosphere of our guild, either. Maybe something similar might work for IST. Dunno. Smile
Eru, I came away with your main concern being: Is Ironsong more concerned with the idea of raid-as-advancement, instead of our MC formula, which was Raid-as-team-building-exercise? I sympathize with this. So let's not talk about "how to progress," let's talk about, "How do we get Ironsong to show up and raid as a guild, to improve cohesiveness and fun-times?" I think the alternating 10/25 man model in Sound's WotLK post is a godsend.

There's a problem of numbers, as Elyana has elaborated upon. It's hard to get people to show up if they think nobody else will. I'd love to see even a simple sign-up ahead of time, as we used to do in my old Alliance guild. We'd run sign-ups for UBRS (we were small and not-at-all hardcore). This way we could gauge interest ahead of time, and cancel the event if nobody signed up. Sometimes someone got sick, but pretty consistently, everyone who said they'd show up would show up.

Anyhow, my 2c.
Wakaraina Wrote:Eru, I came away with your main concern being: Is Ironsong more concerned with the idea of raid-as-advancement, instead of our MC formula, which was Raid-as-team-building-exercise?

I see team-building bandied about occasionally, and I've never seen a cohesive explanation of what folks mean when they say it. It seems to be more or less meaning an inclusive raid, trying to get everyone into it, rather than an exclusive raid, where raid membership is based on gear/skill/whatever. If I'm off the mark there, please let me know.

Honestly, I think it's 6 months+ too late for that kind of raid, unless you just mean Karazhan. A lot of our more hardcore raiders have found raids outside of the guild (such as with Elyana's EndGame and Assault raids), or have left the guild entirely. We rarely have half the Gruuls/Mags raid comprised of IST members. The numbers just aren't there.

Personally, I don't think sign-ups would help anything at all. The raid times for IST raids are hardly secret, and anyone interested in going can be easily directed to Kosath/Jaba's runs, or the Saturday run. Folks know about them if they want to know about them. None of those runs are progression runs - maybe 3 people in a month of runs get turned away due to gear. The runs don't happen because regular folks just don't show up :/
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
Part of it I'd say is lack of newer members feeling or being ready for raids. I've noticed a lot more of the members on a lot aren't 70. Leveling goes slow and sometimes groups are hard to find, or maybe someone jsut gets lonely and needs company. Whenever I see someone asking for help I try to be right there helping them and they get more comfortable asking for help.

I remember right when I was brand new to IST and asking for help (and often just talking) there'd be a lot of silence on the other end. It's disheartening to newcomers when silence replaces the initial "holy cow you're new?! Hi, welcome!"

I don't want to accuse anyone of being selfish, but part of me feels that some of these raids don't go through because some people feel like they don't *need* to go to a certain place for loot. Unfortunately they forget about some of us lesser level/geared people who still and want to learn group skills and get some loot that rocks our socks so we in turn can help them progress to where they want to go.

Running some easier instances isn't just good for those of us getting stuff. We get a group dynamic going, train people to be better groupers, and gear people up so the higher level raiders have people ready to fill in spots.

Also, whenever I run a dungeon or quest and somebody stands out to me as a skilled player and grouper I add them to friends and answer their questions about our guild and raid (which happens a lot due to ist size and apparent fame). I have gotten many requests to ask if they can get in on our raids and are severely disappointed when I tell them most of the time they don't even get off the ground.

This is just a few rambled thoughts of a new raider feeling a bit floppy with raiding (other than my awesome pawsome kara groupies. <3 all you guys to bits <3 Big Grin )

And I really don't want to offend anyone, but it's a bit frustrating to see the lack of interest when I'm so ready and rarin to go have fun and play with everyone
I totally sympathize with you Thanuist. For myself, I still occasionally try to go help out raids in karazhan etc, but to be frank, I was done getting gear out of Karazhan last august. I kept going however for some time and subbed in to help out other raids as much as I could. I do so less because I have my time committed elsewhere. It is frustrating for you to not have people to go with, but it is equally frustrating for me to have brought many many people into raiding and then never seen them again after they geared up for various reasons. The only things I do in the game now are socializing, raiding, and farming for consumables for raids, in that order. I, sadly, don't even RP much any more.

I do try to keep up on new recruits however, and I've heard that you are doing well, especially having just hit 70, so keep it up! If you ever get too frustrated, and need to vent, send a tell to Sound beginning with "U gotz goldz?" And keep going to jaba's ZA run and Kosath's Kara run! I actually would try to make those if I could and I was needed.
"Passion and shame torment him, and rage is mingled with his grief."

[Image: playerfeed_1902018_bigsig.gif]
I understand that a lot of people probably watched others get loot and run, but I implore all of them to give some of us eager noobs a chance. I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon Big Grin and I know there are plenty like me just wanting to have fun with peeps.

Even if it was only once every 2 weeks, or heck, once a month that a full group could get into the currently failing 25 mans I'd be happy with the experience and fun (and lewtz. lewtz is always that nice added bonus).

And I'm glad I'm not being complained about Big Grin. I'm trying my best when I go out Big Grin
Sorry Thanuist, but the T5+ raiders not showing up isn't the issue. Many of us do, and we're the ones that show up regularly. Many of us went to Gruul's for weeks and months on end when there was nothing for us there, and we're the folks swapping to our healers or tanks when it's needed. Many of us have literally spent months in instances to try to help gear folks up, and get them raid experience.

Most of us are just getting burnt out doing that. Like Eflu said, we've seen a *lot* of people show up a bit, and then disappear. If folks want to raid, it takes commitment. Since BC, it seems that there just aren't that many in IST that want to make that commitment.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
Okay, so some more inflammatory two cents (Flame tests on copper make the best colors, don't they?)

I think you're still missing the point Logros. This is NOT. NOT. NOT. About gear. This is NOT about raid progression. This is not about helping other "up". These are all words that mean nothing to someone who only wants to go raiding with a bunch of people in order to have a good time. It's an extraordinarily depressing attitude that lacks any meaning, I think, in discussions of raiding as "Team building exericse." Many of us went to MC week after week even though we knew every. damn. week. Druid gear would drop. (Okay, so that's an exaggeration of the situation, but still, there it is).

I'm suggesting sign-ups as a way to gauge interest. To combat apathy. It is NOT meant to be a raiding tool, it is meant to be a social one. They're a way to get people psyched (yes, psyched, if done properly). To know whether or not to show up on a raid day. To get some spoken and public commitment from people. It doesn't take a lot, but obviously, whatever it is, we're not doing it.

I'm also suggesting we stop talking about progression in this thread because I think it poisons the idea we're trying to talk about - how can I hang out with a bunch of other Ironsingers? This is not about getting into Gruul's Lair or Magtheridon's Lair for gear, so "go to Heroics and get badge and rep loot to prepare yourself" is a crap answer. These come up because they're the lowest level and largest raids we can do. It's also why I think World Bosses are a good idea. Yes, it's hard to get people to go, but maybe that's because we're so damn concerned with "ohhh, we can't interfere with people's other raids!" Now this is where I get radical: I say, "screw that." Let's do a Monday night or Wednesday night 25-man raid encounter. We're Ironsong because many of us have better shit to do than sit at a computer. I can never make it to a Saturday raid because it's a Saturday, not because I'm uninterested. The few times I do go are on a more reasonable Sunday afternoon. Obviously, there's something to this, because we always got 30-40 people on Wednesdays for Molten Core, and 40 for Fridays.

This is not an issue of what we can do in-game to make this happen. We have the "Last Attempt" buff that Eru mentioned, we'll do it. Let's look at the more real social factors going into this. This is an MMORPG for heaven's sake.
Different people are going to have different interests. This is a good, productive thread, so let's keep the topic civil and keep things productive.

I honestly believe that Ironsong raids, such as they are, are going to continue to wither on the vine. Right now, there are essentially two groups of people playing in regular instances right now: pre-Karazhan (and sometimes pre-70) folks, and those who are well past Kara and Gruul's, and are enjoying raids outside the guild in more advanced areas.

And both of these are perfectly fine.

The really important question to me is whether or not our Tribesmates needs are being met. As it stands right now, some are. Those who want advanced raids are getting them.

The disconnect is coming from the lack of people showing up for Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon. It's disappointing for a few of us, but the fact of the matter is that if people aren't interested, they aren't interested. We're at a point right now where filling a 25-man raid on Saturday just isn't realistic.

So what is? What would make people happy? We've been getting between 8 and 12 people showing up, more than enough to put together a five-man or two. Kosath and I ran Magister's Terrace a couple weeks back, it was a blast.

The time of forty-man MC slobberknockers was great, but gone. And right now, all-Ironsong 25-mans just aren't happening either. If we want to get back to that point, now is the time to help out our younger members, enjoy what content we can, and move ahead. Cravings for hardcore endgame content can be obliged elsewhere, for now. We may get back there again, but not today.
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This thread is great, try to keep the arguments to a minimun as I would like this to be as constructive as possible.

Ironsong is an RP guild, one of the best RP guilds on the Horde side (if not the best). Ultimately because our main focus is on the RP side of the spectrum we AS A GUILD are lagging behind on the progression side of things. This is the price we pay to RP our characters and socialize with a great group of people, so great that it warrants Real Life Moots so that we can meet the people behind the troll, tauren orc, undead and bloodelf. This is awsome in my opinion, shouldnt change. Can we allow progression as a guild while still maintaining our awsome RP status?

Times have changed, Burning crusade has begun to tear us apart in terms of group socialization by making these far more technical and gear dependant, choosing to go on a raid is a luxury we have that other guilds do NOT give their members. I can count on my fingers who is at the zone in point for a raid at the time of invites. And yes when you show up a couple of times and no one is there it turns you off of showing up again, I am feeling that. Many good members and good friends of IST have left because we do not meet the desire to progress. That is their choice and we all wish them well in their ventures and they are always welcome to join us in our adventures.

We all want the T4, T5, and T6 items, this does require alot of effort and commitment, it requires Mods up the yinyang, items, potions, elixirs, it can be very very costly considering the market. Those that have involved themselves in other guild raids have reaped the benefits of those sacrifices/costs/commitment.

Does the knowledge of WotLK coming push us away from raiding knowing the greenies are going to be better than tier armor? I havent really thought of it until now but yeah it could deter us away from progression.

Waka and Logros you are both correct. We should make the commitment/effort for the sake of progression but should also progress to help keep the tribe together. Other than Moots and the odd occasional RP event, raids are the only other time the majority of us get together and do something. We need to do more things to build up the team. I have been with Ironsong almost 4 years and I feel we are split, and we need to come together again...

Just some other thoughts close to the topic.

*thumbs up to Sreng* Great words!

*end rambling*
It is a good discussion because some of us would like to know whether IST can still be a home to "raiders" or not? I guess I see it as IST deciding what it wants to be as the game goes forward to the next expansion, and how raiding fits into that picture. Will it be a major part, or just a side note?

I agree with Eruadan. Raiding and progression is as good a way to build friendships and community as any in the game, better than most in my opinion. To some, raiding is about that camaraderie, to others it's about seeing new content and tackling new challenges in a team, to me (as you all know), it's all about the loot!

If you want to raid, there are opportunities to do so. I have struggled for a month to fill the Sunday night raid. It has a sign-up and I try to be flexible on time and where we go, but the interest just does not seem to be there.

Sign-ups are open for a Friday night Serpentshrine Cavern raid. This would really present us with a new raiding challenge. I don't expect IST to fill all the slots, as the endgame raiding alliance is involved as well.

If interest and commitment in raiding is just not there right now, I think that is fine, but as someone who keeps trying to organize and run raids, I would like to know. Maybe Sreng is correct and the time of large-scale IST raiding has passed.

Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
Wakaraina Wrote:This is NOT. NOT. NOT. About gear.

Like I said, if gear isn't a concern, then Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon's Lair are good choices. We get enough folks who /are/ geared for the encounter to show up, and the rest of the folks just need to follow directions - they can be in greens, and we'll still succeed. A bunch of us T5 raiders show up for Gruuls/Mags every week just to help out.

Gear *does* have to be a concern, to some extent, or you're just going to be wiping constantly. A few folks will say that doesn't matter, and more power to 'em, but most of us find that sucks, and isn't fun. And when wipes are common, people stop showing up. It happened with Gruul's Lair for a while, and it'll happen with any other raid.

Quote:I'm suggesting sign-ups as a way to gauge interest. To combat apathy. It is NOT meant to be a raiding tool, it is meant to be a social one.

Both Kosath and Jaba's raids have been using them for months and months. By determining whether or not you're going ot show up for a raid based purely on a sign-up, you're discounting the folks that don't read these boards regularly (the majority of the Tribe), out-of-guild people, and anyone who wasn't planning on showing up, and suddenly can. As an example, if I was basing whether or not Mags Lair was going to happen based on sign-ups, we'd never, ever go. OOG folks alone make up more than half our raids most weeks, and those folks aren't going to be using IST signups.

Quote:It's also why I think World Bosses are a good idea.

Agreed there. I love world bosses Smile

Quote: Yes, it's hard to get people to go, but maybe that's because we're so damn concerned with "ohhh, we can't interfere with people's other raids!" Now this is where I get radical: I say, "screw that."

Um.. no. That's silly.

Quote:Let's do a Monday night or Wednesday night 25-man raid encounter.

Best of luck with that. Last night, there were 16 people online when I checked. 13 of those were in our SSC raid.

Quote:The disconnect is coming from the lack of people showing up for Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon. It's disappointing for a few of us, but the fact of the matter is that if people aren't interested, they aren't interested.

Pretty much bossman, pretty much. My long-standing suggestion has been more Kara raids. It's only 10 people, gear is barely a concern, it's a great place to start to learn the BC-style coordination needed, and there's a bunch of us raiders that aren't too burnt out on it to show up to help blitz through.

Quote:I havent really thought of it until now but yeah it could deter us away from progression.

For us raiders, it's not much about gear. We had a hilarious time replacing our pre-BC epics with greens and blues - it was a long-running joke to see who could keep some pre-BC gear the longest. Gear is something we need to have to keep going, and to keep seeing new stuff. Once you've got the baseline gear level, raids in BC are about teamwork and coordination. There's relatively few outright gear-checks. We're playing the game for entertainment, and to be entertained requires fun people to play with, and fun stuff to do. New content (progression) is challenging, and that makes things fun. There's a degree of achievement, and satisfaction in working as part of a team to kick some arse. There was more excitement in the 10 seconds after EndGame beat Vashj for the first time than there's been in 2 months of Gruul's Lair.

Going back and doing stuff that /isn't/ fun, like Gruuls Lair, that's more about gear. We're not there because we're excited to be, we're there to help others get into raiding, and to hopefully get a piece or two of gear for ourselves that'll help us do the stuff we want to do - new stuff. Quite often, the only reason us raiders are there is to help out. When you're at Gruuls, and you see three of us raiders switch characters, that's usually us leaving the characters we /want/ to be on, and bringing in what the raid needs to succeed.

Quote:If interest and commitment in raiding is just not there right now, I think that is fine, but as someone who keeps trying to organize and run raids, I would like to know.

That sums it up pretty well for me too.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)

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