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Just wanted to say goodbye to everyone...
Friday night I left the guild and as I received a few in game mails asking why I just wanted to clear the air. Ironsong is a wonderful guild with even more wonderful people, and I did not leave over any sort of fight or animosity.

As I explained to Sreng since I've been in the guild I have missed nearly every event and have missed every scheduled raid. The problem is that the guild is very much geared towards people who live on the East Coast and all events begin at 5:30-6PM. The earliest I can get on is 6PM and most nights its not til 6:30 or even 7PM.

Leaving was a hard decision, but I've just been increasingly frustrated that every time I log on its to see everyone off doing something that I am missing. While I enjoy RP first and foremost I'd love to see Molten Core and to explore Zul'Gurub and that's not something I'll ever be able to do with Ironsong =/.

So I decided to leave the guild in search of one that is a bit more Pacific Coast friendly. In retrospect I probably should have said something in guild chat, but I was hoping to slip away quietly so as to avoid any fuss. Once again Ironsong is a great guild, and if not for the time difference I'd have been proud to remain a part of it.

Take care everyone!
Stay in touch!
And thanks for the explaination.
Vote Akora for MA!
For anyone else reading this, while I appreciate and am sorry for the time conflict for Krannus (and anyone else), I can't let the statement that we are geared toward East Coast time stand unremarked.

If we were truly East Coast centric those of us on the East Coast wouldn't start our events at 8:30-9:30pm our time and have to stay up running them until anywhere from mindnight to 2am on weekends when many of us work. All our times are compromises that allow the greatest number of Ironsong to participate in events, and it is always regretted when this excludes people. It may be accurate to say that we are not West Coast centric, but if it was all about the East Coast we'd start things earlier than we do for certain.

That said, Krannus your issue is certainly understandable and there will be no hard feelings over it on this end. I suggest you stay in touch with Severien who is planning a 9pm game time ZG raid on Thursdays for those specifically unable to make the Friday raids. (Obviously those who CAN make Friday can't go Thursday night under most circumstances due to the lockout.)

Good luck, and I hope you can find what you need / are looking for.

The Ironsong Tribe
Shillatae perhaps I was unclear so I'll try to explain a bit better (and this is certainly not meant as an attack in any way). I believe that Ironsong favors the EST time zone, because if it did not why wouldn't the times for raids be varied? Currently you raid ZG twice weekly and at each and every one of those raids the start time is 5:30. Its never moved to 6:30 so that PST people might have a chance to go. That says to me that 5:30 is the latest time that the EST people are willing to start the raid, and that the raid will never be moved to a time when any of them are unable to go.

The guild was pitched to me as family oriented and very relaxed about raiding. Yet I was told at 56th level that I was too low to go to either LBRS and UBRS by an officer of the guild as well as several fellow members. Never mind the fact that I'd been to both on the alliance side at that level and done just fine. Never mind the fact that the raid was short people. They would rather wait for more 60th level people than take a chance having someone a few levels lower go.

Neither of these facts is in keeping with what you explained about Ironsong when I joined. In my opinion, which matters little I know, a family guild would take steps to include everyone. How hard would it be to move one of the two weekly raids up an hour so that people are not excluded? You could appoint an officer who is in the PST time zone to help run the raid so that those of you who live in EST wouldn't be obligated to stay up until 2AM your time. That way the EST people still get a raid time that works for them, but the PST people at least get to do something with their guild mates. Also, do you honestly think that bringing a few people lower than level 60 is going to wipe a raid in UBRS?

Its not my habit to speak for other people, but in this case I feel obligated. I watched Malila be passed over for many activities because she was a few levels lower, and while she wasn't vocal about it I know it hurt her feelings. I watched other people log on after ZG raids had begun and speak in guild chat only to be ignored because the bulk of the guild was already involved in a raid they'd never be a part of.

I realize that being a guild officer or leader is hard. I know that its impossible to please everyone. But in this case I feel that no honest effort has been made in the time I've been in the guild to accommodate anyone new. Not one moot or event was scheduled later than 6PM ever, and not one raid has ever been later than 5:30.

You say that these events are scheduled to include the most amount of guild members, but that also means there is a minority who will always be left out. Again, wouldn't it make more sense to change a raid time to help some of those people? Even if it were once a month it would have let those people know that someone cared.

You mention a Thursday raid that is being set up at a later time, but as no one from the Friday raid will be able to go its doomed to failure. There simply will not be enough people to go, and even if there are most of those people (like me) have never been inside ZG and are going to wipe quite often because we lack the experience of those who've been doing it for months.

Just to reiterate this is not an attack. Running a guild is hard and with one as large as Ironsong its impossible for a few officers and leaders to see to everyone's needs. You are going to have people (like me) who feel overlooked and out of place. But I am hoping that putting my viewpoint out here might bring a few things to light and help a few people that weren't getting any help before. Maybe it will help improve things. If not well at least I got it off my chest =).
I can understand some of this frustration. On many occations there has been a request in guild chat for wanting more people to raid instance X. And most of the time I find out that I can not go because the instance is for higher levels than I currently am. While frustrating I understand the reson for this, as I have lead a number of raids in other games and lower level people tend to cause problems for no other reason than thier level difference vs. the mobs in question.

I have a similar issue to you in that many of the raids are too late for me to attend. Starting raids at 9pm and requiring 3 to 4 hours is far later than I am able to commit to on most occations.

I guess I just wanted to let you know that you are not the only one to feel these types of frustrations. If you feel you need to leave Ironsong to find what you require I wish you well. But hopefully there is some way that you can find reason to stay.
Etsuko - Monk
Razzlixx Blingwell - Warlock
Cloudjumper Wildmane - Druid (Inactive)
Thanks for the sympathetic ear, Grymfang. When I say that Malila was passed over for being too low I am talking about being left out of UBRS raids at level 56. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that a raid there can succeed with a few people of that level, because I've done it myself on my alliance character. Especially when those people are either support or healing classes.

I guess I can sum up what's bothering me in the previous post. If I were a raid leader I'd rather take a 56th druid that was a guildmate along on a raid rather than pass them over for a 60th non-guildmate unless I was sure it would pose a threat to the raid. Thats just the sort of loyalty in a guild I am used to ~shrugs~. Hardcore raiding guilds worry about classes, balance and numbers over their members to accomplish their goals. Family guilds do not. Just my 2 copper...

At the same time Ironsong has been working hard to conquer ZG, and a LOT of effort has gone into doing just that. I am not suggesting that the people who've been a part of that effort should neccesarily be penalized so that newer people can be included. But the result of that is that newer people are going to feel left out. Catch 22 I suppose.

Ironsong will continue to be a great guild, and I am sure you'll continue to explore new places and overcome new challenges. And there are many, many guild members who are very happy with the current setup of the guild. Shill, Sreng and Eveline in particular should be proud of what you've accomplished. You aren't ever going to be able to please everyone and you certainly shouldn't feel bad about it. But that said I for one would appreciate it if you'd stand behind the fact that you are doing what you can rather than acting like you are prepared to make compromises that you clearly are not.
I wrote a long reply here and then realized it's not worth it.

I'm sorry Krannus, I like you and am saddened that your needs were met in the manner you desired. I appreciate your need to vent but I'm ending this thread.

You claim Ironsong is a great guild but then say the following:

1) The Tribe isn't loyal to its members.
2) I don't stand behind what I do for the Tribe.
3) We are not willing to compromise with the needs of our members, despite claiming that we are.
4) That we act more like a raiding guild than a family guild.
5) Severien's event is doomed to failure.
6) No one on Pacific time can ever come with us on a raid, though a number of them can and do.
7) You don't make a habit for speaking for other people, though that's what most of my interaction with you has been.
8) You want to encourage positive change in the Tribe, but quit unannounced over these perceived problems when in fact we have worked with other people with similar issues in the past, unbeknownst to you.
9) Finally, you reiterated a previously privately addressed complaint that only involved one or two Tribemates, at least one of whom personally apologized and the other of whom was spoken with pointedly about the issue. I should think the matter resolved. I've been through Scholomance with a level 54 Hunter, this is a non-issue.

I was concerned that some people in the Tribe might read your posts and be moved by your complaints to feel sad about the Tribe, but when I break it down, I realize they have no reason to do so. I wish you well but I think it is clear that you are correct: Ironsong probably isn't the right place for you.

For all the talk of family guilds and RP, you quit the Tribe because you want to raid (most RP events are held later in the evening and are easy to enter after the start time), and you are not the first to look for a more suitable raiding guild for their needs. That's fine and again, no hard feelings. Be well and find what you seek. Any Tribemate with scheduling issues/concerns please talk to me about it or post in the Raiding forum in the ZG info thread.

High Priestess
The Ironsong Tribe

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