01-23-2009, 11:31 PM
This thread was made to accomodate for the discussion previously found here. Keeping this thread in RR - Northrend just because I'm not sure if this would belong in the public eyes of Wayfarer's Wrangling.
To which I replied:
Shillatae replied to me and Thanuist as follows:
So, here is my reply to the subject at hand...
I will admit that I may have been a bit hasty in my reply. Note that this happened right after the incident. Regardless, I am merely judging off what I have seen and how I have been treated in the past regarding groups and raids. Or maybe I just have really bad timing when I want to group up with people. Who knows?
It's not really the fact that this is the second REAL time through Naxx that gets me. It's more about being excluded from runs altogether. Not saying this happens all the time. There are plenty of times I have gotten in raids. I love to raid and do dungeon runs with IST, and the real reason I joined this guild was for the RP. But there was some controversy a while back about how we were not putting out enough DPS in our raids simply because either, people were not doing all the abilities they could, or because they didn't have the *gear* to last. With that kind of preassure, I'm trying to do the best I can to play my part. I've also stated plenty of times that I would respec Fury if need be. But, I am usually told not to worry about it, stay Arms, etc. I will admit that I get that "sinking heart" feeling when I log in and see 10+ guildies in a raid that I had wished to take part of. Maybe I just feel bored and lonely, I'm not sure. But I get this feeling that I should be in there, helping people. Not flying around, looking for ore or some crap while everyone else is busting their butts trying to figure out how to claim victory.
Also, I know officers need to know about raids and runs to keep the guild informed. But what if you're not an officer and want to be able to know just as much as they do? Do you get excluded because you're not an officer and therefor, others would not want to look to you, per se? I suppose researching on Wowwiki is about as good as you can do until the real thing.
Anyway, I have said my piece for now. I am tired and hope people don't hate me for voicing my opinion like I did. Like I said, better now then later when it gets all bottled up and explodes, right?
Thanuist Wrote:Right now I'm sitting here realizing we don't have consistent numbers for two 10 mans. Please consider a rotation for every other week/ a one night one thing. second night another thing deal.
The same people have been going and since we obviously don't have the numbers yet I think it'd be fair to rotate people out so all of us get a shot. It probably doesn't mean much to those of you who are getting to go, but us "leftovers" are feeling left out
To which I replied:
Melikar Wrote:I agree 110%
I also notice that the same group of people tend to get in these raids while the rest of us "leftovers" are just stuck to forming whatever we can scrap together. It's the same way with Heroics in this guild, at least by what I have seen.
Very rarely, do I ever get a successful group to go do Heroics with. I prefer not to use the LFG channel simply because of bad experiences before. But there are *certain people* who get groups together in IST no problem. I'm not going to say names, but judging by gear and stats, it isn't too hard to figure out. I have been doing more raiding and dungeons with other guilds than my own. Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees this.
This is not just your tribe, it is mine as well as everyone else's and we all need to share what we can. I showed an hour early for the latest Naxx raid only to be told I wasn't going two hours later. It doesn't matter if one person is singularly responsible for setting up a second raid or not, it needs to be communicated and coordinated by other raid leaders as well. I remember showing up early for Kara on Mel all the time pre-Lich and would be told that I wasn't getting in after waiting some time and talking to said raid leader about it. What I'm trying to say is, this is the same stuff happening all over again.
Sorry if I offended anyone, but this is my honest opinion. I would rather say it now then explode at everyone and end up leaving the guild later.
Shillatae replied to me and Thanuist as follows:
Shillatae Wrote:Three things here.
First, these posts were inappropriate in this thread. I'll address your posts here as I can't see a command for me to split this into a new thread however.
Second, this is waaaay premature. Tonight was the second time we entered Naxxramas and killed anything. Last Friday was the first time we entered Naxxramas and killed anything. We know there aren't enough people ready or available for 25-man yet and knew there was a possibility that a second ten might not get off the ground immediately. Donalzon quite impressively put together a group last week but only two or so were Tribe. Without his presence and enough people to make the second group work there was little else to be done.
Finally, we certainly will make rotations and other official plans. So far we had a couple of scouting runs neither of which ended in any boss kills at all and last week our first kills on some bosses. We took officers for the first runs so that on future runs whichever of us are available on any given week will know as many fights as possible. Tonight we went in again without Jabadue, the usual raid leader, to see how we would do. It went well. Now we can plan going forward.
Melikar, your angry comments going back to TBC and suggesting that you are being excluded intentionally in favor of others I will certainly not hold against you. I'm quite sure you did more content than myself in TBC though, and I empathize because I was unable to get to do many things I had hoped in that expansion. The reality is none of us are always able to get what we want done, regardless of guild rank or perception. If you happen to log in - as I have - and see that most people on are already in instances it can be disheartening, though.
However it is disrespectful of you both to imply that we don't all experience this. I've banged my head on my desk in frustration at not being able to "gel" a group countless times as Kosath will attest. Hell, we live together and have time conflicts with each other constantly, let alone with finding more to join us online! I've gotten well over my head trying to learn tanking on the fly with patient Tribemates I hadn't often grouped with in the past. I'm genuinely sorry you haven't been one of them. Though you'd probably be a better tank! : )
Thanuist, your recommendations were sound and along the lines of what we would like to do. I wish you hadn't felt the need to append sniping comments to them about how inclusivity doesn't mean anything to your officers and raid leaders but I include them with Melikar's remarks and empathize with where you are coming from.
Tribe, you really should understand that Ironsong would have progressed much farther through raid content in every expansion and phase of the game if we didn't care about inclusivity as much as we did. We took well over 100 people through the Molten Core but never penetrated Blackwing Lair. We took dozens of people into Karazhan but only defeated Kael'thas as TBC wound to a close. Including people in our runs is what we have always been all about. Everyone can't go every time by any means and I sat out of Zul'gurub or Karazhan my fair share. Heck, I never fought the end bosses of Kara. Regardless of whether it progressed the Tribe, we've always taken as many people as possible wherever we could go.
I respect both of you needing to vent your frustrations about tonight. Please consider our code of conduct and treat your Tribemates with more respect as well. You both say some uncharitable things that I have taken as charitably as possible I think. Given this is our second week of killing anything in Naxxramas with an Ironsong run your level of heat on the issue is a bit extreme. The issue of finding 5-man groups and heroics is a separate and distinct one that might be good to address individually. If Tuesday night instancing is not a useful option for you perhaps you or we should consider adding something else? I know I've had a few nights where I sit online doing little save perhaps dailies or old world soloing.
I encourage anyone interested to start a NEW thread addressing any of these issues constructively. Otherwise, any further off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted. Feel free to use the usual officer contact methods if you want to discuss this more on a one on one basis as well. In-game chat or mail, forum mail on this site or the officer contact mail we have posted on the site.
Be part of a solution,
Shillatae / Kuskuh
So, here is my reply to the subject at hand...
I will admit that I may have been a bit hasty in my reply. Note that this happened right after the incident. Regardless, I am merely judging off what I have seen and how I have been treated in the past regarding groups and raids. Or maybe I just have really bad timing when I want to group up with people. Who knows?
It's not really the fact that this is the second REAL time through Naxx that gets me. It's more about being excluded from runs altogether. Not saying this happens all the time. There are plenty of times I have gotten in raids. I love to raid and do dungeon runs with IST, and the real reason I joined this guild was for the RP. But there was some controversy a while back about how we were not putting out enough DPS in our raids simply because either, people were not doing all the abilities they could, or because they didn't have the *gear* to last. With that kind of preassure, I'm trying to do the best I can to play my part. I've also stated plenty of times that I would respec Fury if need be. But, I am usually told not to worry about it, stay Arms, etc. I will admit that I get that "sinking heart" feeling when I log in and see 10+ guildies in a raid that I had wished to take part of. Maybe I just feel bored and lonely, I'm not sure. But I get this feeling that I should be in there, helping people. Not flying around, looking for ore or some crap while everyone else is busting their butts trying to figure out how to claim victory.
Also, I know officers need to know about raids and runs to keep the guild informed. But what if you're not an officer and want to be able to know just as much as they do? Do you get excluded because you're not an officer and therefor, others would not want to look to you, per se? I suppose researching on Wowwiki is about as good as you can do until the real thing.
Anyway, I have said my piece for now. I am tired and hope people don't hate me for voicing my opinion like I did. Like I said, better now then later when it gets all bottled up and explodes, right?