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IST Raiding
This thread was made to accomodate for the discussion previously found here. Keeping this thread in RR - Northrend just because I'm not sure if this would belong in the public eyes of Wayfarer's Wrangling.

Thanuist Wrote:Right now I'm sitting here realizing we don't have consistent numbers for two 10 mans. Please consider a rotation for every other week/ a one night one thing. second night another thing deal.

The same people have been going and since we obviously don't have the numbers yet I think it'd be fair to rotate people out so all of us get a shot. It probably doesn't mean much to those of you who are getting to go, but us "leftovers" are feeling left out

To which I replied:

Melikar Wrote:I agree 110%

I also notice that the same group of people tend to get in these raids while the rest of us "leftovers" are just stuck to forming whatever we can scrap together. It's the same way with Heroics in this guild, at least by what I have seen.

Very rarely, do I ever get a successful group to go do Heroics with. I prefer not to use the LFG channel simply because of bad experiences before. But there are *certain people* who get groups together in IST no problem. I'm not going to say names, but judging by gear and stats, it isn't too hard to figure out. I have been doing more raiding and dungeons with other guilds than my own. Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees this.

This is not just your tribe, it is mine as well as everyone else's and we all need to share what we can. I showed an hour early for the latest Naxx raid only to be told I wasn't going two hours later. It doesn't matter if one person is singularly responsible for setting up a second raid or not, it needs to be communicated and coordinated by other raid leaders as well. I remember showing up early for Kara on Mel all the time pre-Lich and would be told that I wasn't getting in after waiting some time and talking to said raid leader about it. What I'm trying to say is, this is the same stuff happening all over again.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but this is my honest opinion. I would rather say it now then explode at everyone and end up leaving the guild later.

Shillatae replied to me and Thanuist as follows:

Shillatae Wrote:Three things here.

First, these posts were inappropriate in this thread. I'll address your posts here as I can't see a command for me to split this into a new thread however.

Second, this is waaaay premature. Tonight was the second time we entered Naxxramas and killed anything. Last Friday was the first time we entered Naxxramas and killed anything. We know there aren't enough people ready or available for 25-man yet and knew there was a possibility that a second ten might not get off the ground immediately. Donalzon quite impressively put together a group last week but only two or so were Tribe. Without his presence and enough people to make the second group work there was little else to be done.

Finally, we certainly will make rotations and other official plans. So far we had a couple of scouting runs neither of which ended in any boss kills at all and last week our first kills on some bosses. We took officers for the first runs so that on future runs whichever of us are available on any given week will know as many fights as possible. Tonight we went in again without Jabadue, the usual raid leader, to see how we would do. It went well. Now we can plan going forward.

Melikar, your angry comments going back to TBC and suggesting that you are being excluded intentionally in favor of others I will certainly not hold against you. I'm quite sure you did more content than myself in TBC though, and I empathize because I was unable to get to do many things I had hoped in that expansion. The reality is none of us are always able to get what we want done, regardless of guild rank or perception. If you happen to log in - as I have - and see that most people on are already in instances it can be disheartening, though.

However it is disrespectful of you both to imply that we don't all experience this. I've banged my head on my desk in frustration at not being able to "gel" a group countless times as Kosath will attest. Hell, we live together and have time conflicts with each other constantly, let alone with finding more to join us online! I've gotten well over my head trying to learn tanking on the fly with patient Tribemates I hadn't often grouped with in the past. I'm genuinely sorry you haven't been one of them. Though you'd probably be a better tank! : )

Thanuist, your recommendations were sound and along the lines of what we would like to do. I wish you hadn't felt the need to append sniping comments to them about how inclusivity doesn't mean anything to your officers and raid leaders but I include them with Melikar's remarks and empathize with where you are coming from.

Tribe, you really should understand that Ironsong would have progressed much farther through raid content in every expansion and phase of the game if we didn't care about inclusivity as much as we did. We took well over 100 people through the Molten Core but never penetrated Blackwing Lair. We took dozens of people into Karazhan but only defeated Kael'thas as TBC wound to a close. Including people in our runs is what we have always been all about. Everyone can't go every time by any means and I sat out of Zul'gurub or Karazhan my fair share. Heck, I never fought the end bosses of Kara. Regardless of whether it progressed the Tribe, we've always taken as many people as possible wherever we could go.

I respect both of you needing to vent your frustrations about tonight. Please consider our code of conduct and treat your Tribemates with more respect as well. You both say some uncharitable things that I have taken as charitably as possible I think. Given this is our second week of killing anything in Naxxramas with an Ironsong run your level of heat on the issue is a bit extreme. The issue of finding 5-man groups and heroics is a separate and distinct one that might be good to address individually. If Tuesday night instancing is not a useful option for you perhaps you or we should consider adding something else? I know I've had a few nights where I sit online doing little save perhaps dailies or old world soloing.

I encourage anyone interested to start a NEW thread addressing any of these issues constructively. Otherwise, any further off-topic posts in this thread will be deleted. Feel free to use the usual officer contact methods if you want to discuss this more on a one on one basis as well. In-game chat or mail, forum mail on this site or the officer contact mail we have posted on the site.

Be part of a solution,
Shillatae / Kuskuh

So, here is my reply to the subject at hand...

I will admit that I may have been a bit hasty in my reply. Note that this happened right after the incident. Regardless, I am merely judging off what I have seen and how I have been treated in the past regarding groups and raids. Or maybe I just have really bad timing when I want to group up with people. Who knows?

It's not really the fact that this is the second REAL time through Naxx that gets me. It's more about being excluded from runs altogether. Not saying this happens all the time. There are plenty of times I have gotten in raids. I love to raid and do dungeon runs with IST, and the real reason I joined this guild was for the RP. But there was some controversy a while back about how we were not putting out enough DPS in our raids simply because either, people were not doing all the abilities they could, or because they didn't have the *gear* to last. With that kind of preassure, I'm trying to do the best I can to play my part. I've also stated plenty of times that I would respec Fury if need be. But, I am usually told not to worry about it, stay Arms, etc. I will admit that I get that "sinking heart" feeling when I log in and see 10+ guildies in a raid that I had wished to take part of. Maybe I just feel bored and lonely, I'm not sure. But I get this feeling that I should be in there, helping people. Not flying around, looking for ore or some crap while everyone else is busting their butts trying to figure out how to claim victory.

Also, I know officers need to know about raids and runs to keep the guild informed. But what if you're not an officer and want to be able to know just as much as they do? Do you get excluded because you're not an officer and therefor, others would not want to look to you, per se? I suppose researching on Wowwiki is about as good as you can do until the real thing.

Anyway, I have said my piece for now. I am tired and hope people don't hate me for voicing my opinion like I did. Like I said, better now then later when it gets all bottled up and explodes, right?
[Image: AWOeJWn.png]
Thanks Melikar - I'm about to hit the hay but I wanted to express that and see what we can figure out here together for the Tribe.

Heh, honestly wowwiki has been the main source of our (not always correct) raid strats so far. The patch changed at least one encounter substantially too - Heigan the Unclean.

I vaguely recall the discussion you are talking about but so far we aren't hitting DPS walls in Naxx. Some of the encounters are tight but I really don't think you will have a problem getting started in there in higher end blues and maybe crafted epics if you've had any luck with this. I started out in Savage Saronite when we did our first scout run aka wiping for two hours on Anub'rekhan.

I'm going to be on vacation the next two weeks and will be missing at least one of the runs regardless, so feel free to go get the dps plate drops I'm missing. : )

We'll talk more later and thanks again. I'll clear out the original thread tomorrow.

"She is a soothsayer. She’s a mystic. She is a witch doctor, able to see into people’s hearts and minds. She’s also touched by the elements." -Naomie Harris
I am sorry that the two runs did not work out on Friday. My desire is to continue to try 2 10-mans on both Monday to Obsidium Sanctum and Friday to Naxxramas in preparation for 25-man raids. This is a process and we have been doing our best to work toward the goal of 25-man IST raids. Our raiding philosophy is inclusiveness and this has not changed. Our intention is to rotate people in if another raid cannot be organized, but it is not a perfect process. In the end, the raid leader has to put together a raid, and if there are more people than spots, that is doubly tough.

Mel and Than, I would ask you to remember our 25-mans in BC and how we really tried to include everyone then. Nothing has changed, and maybe, you could give us the benefit of the doubt. We have been working hard to make this happen.

There are a few things, which are fact, that need to be emphasized. Last Monday, we ran two 10-mans into Obsidium Sanctum. I think I included everyone who was on and wanted to go. Prior to that, I ran a heroic dungeon night on Mondays that was open to all. Oryx and Zlinka have been running heroic dungeon night on Tues. at about 730p Server. Last week, we did not have enough to make a heroic run. I have to admit that at other times, I am tired of organizing and leading runs, and like to sit back and let other people do the work. If you need someone for a group, send a tell. We are not intentionally excluding anyone.

Finally, this is how I will handle raid invites in the future. I will use the in-game calendar to create a raid event, and invite people through that mechanism. That means the raid composition is set well before the actual raid. I want to avoid what I went through in BC of finding people at 715p Server for a raid that's supposed to start at 700p Server. The in-game calendar will notify you of the invite, and you can accept or not depending on your availability and desire. Now, things never work out as planned, and I will probably still have to scramble for a few spots, but at least, it gives me an idea of who definitely will be there beforehand. Thus, you should know through this mechanism if you are in the raid or not well before raid time. There is always a chance that there are open spots, so send a tell to the raid leader (usually me) to check.

Therefore, with 20 raid spots open over the next several weeks, everyone should get the chance to participate. When we get to the point of having consistenly 5 more than we need, then, it is time for 25-mans.

Of course, there is the danger, as in last Friday, that we will not have enough. Thus, if this is going to work. we need people to show up and be patient. The thing I hate the most about leading raids is excluding people who want to go. Be assured that we will try to be as fair and balanced as we can when there are more people than spots. There is one caveat to this. People need to be appropriately geared for the instance. If we are desperate, we will take someone with lesser gear, but better for all if we don't.

What I will do, though I can't promise to do it everytime, is to try and organize more heroic runs on Saturday and Sunday nights.

Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
Although I have no control over others, I initially though my post *was* appropriately located considering it does pertain to the structure and running of the raids.

For anyone who thought my comment that could be read as people not caring if others get to go or not wasn't my intention. I was merely throwing it out there that sometimes we can forget who's actually not going when we ourselves are in there, pumped, and eventually done. I honestly wasn't trying to take a jab, but I defiantely admit I worded that wrong and it didn't dawn on me it could be taken that way.

My frustration is seeing the same group go in when, if I may express this, isn't neccessarily set up for sucess. it's an intensely melee heavy group, and the most of the bosses there are very melee-unfriendly (non constant self healing in one specific) *especially* the last two. You would need 3 healers, and they would have to be very top of their game and have most (if not all) of the best pre-naxx items for their class/spec.

I also have some from the fact that I'm trying to extend myself to others to help them I try my best to make it as well known as I can that I am ready and willing to run heroics and raids. Most of the time I PuG it because I get no response. I get my usuals who will run with me, but other people who could benefit from it don't even say "nah, I'm doing something else."

I don't want to turn this into a tooting my own horn kind of thing, but I want to throw it out there that I've worked really hard to get Thanuist as geared as I can. I essentially have no badge gear left to get (so instead I spend it on those shiny account bound items hehe). If people are unsure of a dungeon it would be less of a worry if I was there because heck, I've healed through blazing balls of stupid, an unsure guildmate is a nice positve thing!

I know the encounters well, and I'm willing to lead and help people who are unsure, but I rarely get replies for my offers of help from people who aren't my usual buddies. That makes me sad.

I'm not apologizing for my feelings because that's how I *feel*. Mileage may vary. For anyone who reads this and ends it infurited I will sum my point up: Various thigns in my life have enabled me to run a lot and see a lot. For those of you who are running things to a lesser extent I want to throw it out there that I'm free to ask. I'd rather run with guildies than pug anymore

And for anyone looking for naxx strats I recommend the youtube tankspot guide videos on the encounters

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