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ICC 25-man Invite Priorities and Scheduling
#1
I just wanted to put some things out there about the IST 25-man raid into ICC so there won't be any confusion.

There is a certain priority to my invite procedure. In order:
1. Raid balance. We have to cover tanking and healing first. Then, I usually try to diversify our DPS classes as much as I can.
2. Regular raid members to reward people who are there raid after raid. This does the raid as a whole the most good because the people who show up most often increase their chance to get gear.
3. New people with gear and experience appropriate to the instance.

I also want to say that this raid is very full, and often after 1 and 2, there are no more spots. All I can do is promise to do my best to get people in while still having a successful raid. We are trying to organize some additional nights of instancing and raiding, and this is a good way to gear up for the ICC raid.

Scheduling: My plan is to focus on ICC. If in my judgment, we do not have the personnel, however, we will drop back to ToC and Onyxia, as well as doing the weekly raid.

We have always tried to finish on a high note, so I will redirect us to another instance or call the raid early if I think the timing is right.

Don't hesitate to post here or contact me if you have questions or concerns.

-Jaba
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
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#2
I have had some complaints of late, so I thought a bump here would be appropriate. In my mind, none of these priorities have changed. I do want to highlight a few things.

1. Gem and enchant your gear. I check this. If you gear is not fully gemmed and enchanted, then, I figure you really are not serious about raiding.
2. Come prepared to raid with flasks and an up-to-date boss mod. I prefer Deadly Boss Mods, but there are others. I also check this. If you don't have these, well, then see bullet 1.
3. Improve your performance. There are a multitude of websites devoted to all aspects of WoW game play. I have posted several of these in the past. I will mention just a few that I find helpful, wowpopular.com, wow-heroes.com, and the rawr program for gear at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr">http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr</a><!-- m -->. In addition, there a plenty of sites devoted to class/spec mechanics and ways to improve performance. Study your class and spec. Do what you need to do to up your performance. Run a meter to know where you are. I check this also.

Sometimes there are just too many people and not enough spots. When it gets down to those last few spots, I will look at raid balance and buffs first. For example, arms warrior or fury warrior? I would choose the Arms for the raid buffs unless the fury was a top DPS'er. Another example is 6 mages wanting to go. I would probably apply my stated priorities and 1-3 above to make the choice. Another example from last night was that we were heavy on melee DPS, so I invited a ranged DPS for the last spot. Fights like Marrowgar and Saurfang require some balance.

Finally, use the calendar tool properly. Only accept an invite if you are sure that you will be there. There is an option for a tentative if you are not sure. This helps me a lot.

All that being said, I will still try to get people in if there are spots. There is nobody that has wanted to raid in the 25-man that has not gotten to come. The complaints have to do with frequency.

This is my system and I don't see it changing. Do the things you need to do, and I will notice.

-Jaba
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
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#3
I would like to voice my concern about non-guild members being invited before guild members.

Also, if one does not get invited to the raid, then they don't get the opportunities to get better gear or the emblems to pay for them.

I feel that it would be better for the guild as a whole to give those with less experience and gear the opportunities to get those. Who cares if we have a bit of difficulty. It's better (morale) for the guild overall, even with a couple of deaths. (It happens anyway). How else will we become experienced in the raids? And with more guild members invited to the raids, will be more opportunites to actually role-play during the raids. It seems like once we get to the raid, no one wants to rp anymore. (...and those that don't get invited certainly aren't gonna feel like rp-ing anymore.)

I don't know...what's everyone else's thoughts on it?
Would you prefer more rp-ing while raiding?
Would it matter to you if there was a less possibility of success during the raid, but knew that you were helping guild members get the experience, reputation, and gear?
Does it matter to you if a non-guild member gets invited before you because they're better geared/more experienced?
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#4
rincewindy Wrote:I would like to voice my concern about non-guild members being invited before guild members.

Also, if one does not get invited to the raid, then they don't get the opportunities to get better gear or the emblems to pay for them.

I feel that it would be better for the guild as a whole to give those with less experience and gear the opportunities to get those. Who cares if we have a bit of difficulty. It's better (morale) for the guild overall, even with a couple of deaths. (It happens anyway). How else will we become experienced in the raids? And with more guild members invited to the raids, will be more opportunites to actually role-play during the raids. It seems like once we get to the raid, no one wants to rp anymore. (...and those that don't get invited certainly aren't gonna feel like rp-ing anymore.)

I don't know...what's everyone else's thoughts on it?
Would you prefer more rp-ing while raiding?
Would it matter to you if there was a less possibility of success during the raid, but knew that you were helping guild members get the experience, reputation, and gear?
Does it matter to you if a non-guild member gets invited before you because they're better geared/more experienced?

I think this is a valid topic, however I think the latter part of it is another topic entirely.

I would guess that its a give and take scenario when it comes to other guilds attending our raids. They support us and we support them when it comes to filling gaps when they (or we) have missing people. I can't speak for Jaba but that's how I see the reasoning for it.
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#5
Remember that alot of those outsiders helped us to get to this point, going back even to Naxx. Without them we wouldn't have gotten this far. It's as much their raid as it is ours.

Other than that, all I can say is make sure you (that's a general "you" btw) are doing everything you can to be the best at whatever your role is.

A few things that (general) you can do outside of the raid:
Study your class (talents, skill rotations, gear stats, etc...)
Study the fights
Run heroics for badges
Properly enchant your gear
Properly gem your gear

When you actually get into a raid, make sure you're paying attention. Those who stand in the fire and die will be mocked and derided. Those who don't move when instructed will be flayed.

Always remember, raiding is a privilege and not a right. It takes all 25 people to be on their game on the highest tier raids in order to succeed.
[Image: IST_Noodle2_sm.jpg]
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#6
Well-said, Noodle.

I just want to add that I consider the out-of-guild raiders as friends, and that I won't exclude them in favor of guild members. Most of them have been with us for a long time, Naxx or Ulduar. I agree that the 25-man raid is as much theirs as ours.

-Jaba
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
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#7
To begin: I love to RP and do it quite a bit on /gu with all my IST toons on /gu.

To comment on above topics: I think raid invites should be totally and utterly independent of any "RP" reasons.

To add to this, I would *actively* discourage RP in the /raid channel during raids. If folks want to use the /guild channel, emotes, or /say to RP during raids, please do.

1) Vent needs to stay clear, so many of us put non-urgent raid information on the /raid channel.
2) Aggressive characters in the raid channel cause tension where there doesn't need to be. Raid are tense enough as we push our DPS, Heals, and tactics to as high as possible.
3) I want to encourage folks to ask questions, tactics, and raid stuff over /raid without having the comments pushed out of the text screen.
4) To be blunt, the most active participants specifically in the /raid channel RP in recent raids have had some of the lowest performances for their raid role. Sorry, but that is simply how the numbers and tactical observations have shown.

Thank you.

-Phoronid.
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#8
Unsurprisingly, I agree with Phoro (Mirounga.)

I personally find it impossible to rp while doing any kind of decent dps in raid. I can only imagine trying to do it while healing or tanking. The in character attitudes are also a potential problem in a raid setting. Phoro's right. Tensions can be high in raid. The last thing anyone needs is aggressive characters elevating that. For my part, Aliss is a total snobby you-know-what when in character. I think it's important to the raid dynamic that when we're in raid, I'm Stephanie, not Alissandre, and therefore am positive and friendly (usually :wink: ) instead of aggressive and condescending. I'm sure other folks have similar in and out of character dichotomies wherein being out of character is vastly more peaceful and helpful in a raid situation.

Anyway, because of all this, my vote is also a rather emphatic "no" on rp in raid. Sounds fun in theory, but not so much in practice. Smile RP during lower level raids is great though!


And as for the other thing, I'm in favor of raid progression and honoring the long term contributions of our out of guild friends, thought that's obviously not my call.
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#9
Me three.

I'm all in favor of RP, but I don't think I could take trying to rp while raiding, other than the occasional /say or /g. And I'm only dps, with a pretty easy job. I like knowing that /raid will be instructions to make my job easier. I also agree that anything in /say should be in-character, but I like to be me in /raid.

On the idea of gearing-up people vs taking the best, I've seen that it kind of goes in waves, and I support that. It seems when we are hitting a rough patch, we need the best-geared, most experienced people, so we can get through the fight, and when we're on cruise-mode, then we work on gearing-up and fine-tuning. That also gives Jabadue the leeway to decide what is best for *that night*, which might be different from another night. And if it makes his job easier, I'm for it.
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#10
Rincewindy/Mula – I know how you feel. When we started raiding back in vanilla WoW I was frequently left out of raids due to the volume of people that we had in guild who wanted to raid, and the perception at the time that officers should give our spots to guild members in order to make the invite procedure easier for those who were running the raids. I really hated it, even though I got in more often than not. When I got left out it felt like I was really missing out on something special and that they didn’t want me. I had put aside time in my schedule to raid but was just left to sit on the sidelines as other people got to enjoy themselves.

However things changed, and through perseverance I eventually got a regular spot in the raid. If I had made a big stink about it that would’ve just made everyone’s life miserable and I probably would’ve turned people away from me. My point is that things aren't always fair, but how you handle them says a lot about who you are and is a measure of your character. Rising to the challenge is something that will pay off in the end.

The raid leader is in a difficult position, balancing the needs and wants of a wide variety of people with the success of the raid and our progression through it. The matter of getting guild members invites before out-of-guild raiders is something we’ve broached before and I’ve even taken your side at times in the hopes of getting my friends more involved with things. But the fact is that there are benefits and drawbacks to either end of the argument. Either way someone is going to be disappointed, but a decision had to be made. That decision was to invite raiders based on their performance and commitment to the raid before their affiliations with the Tribe.

Look at it from this angle. Higher performing and committed raiders feel that they must work harder to compensate for lower performers to help the raid progress. If we’re stuck on a certain boss for two months and still have members that aren’t learning the fights and have lower DPS than the tanks then people are going to say that’s what’s holding them back from beating these bosses. Those members are going to feel so frustrated that they’re going to complain or just up and look for other raids to join. They don’t feel the raid leader is being fair to them and the time and energy they’ve invested into raiding. They would be right. Why should they work twice as hard as others to progress? Why are these lower performing members getting invite priority over them? Why are they getting the same loot when they didn’t work as hard to attain it and won’t put it to as much use? These are complaints we would hear.

We have a commitment to these out of guild raiders that have helped us get this far. The tribe is a big group of friends, but these out-of-guild raiders are our friends as well. It isn’t fair to them to leave them out of raids just because they wear a different guild tag than we do.

The fact is that you will eventually get a regular spot in the raid if you put the raid before yourself. Give the tribe your support even if you don’t get a spot. Improve your performance by researching your class and raiding strategies as others have suggested. Commit to being online at raid time, there are inevitably spots that open up as raid attendance waxes and wanes with the seasons. And if you feel that you are not getting enough raiding time to improve then get involved in a regular 10-man, they spring up all over the place.

I think you are in a good position to become a regular. You are currently one of two DPS warriors involved in the raid, meaning you have a unique set of buffs and abilities to bring to the table. And currently DPS warriors can perform as well if not better than most DPS classes if played right. Gear is important, but so is skill and knowledge. You need both to succeed.

I'd just like to personally thank you for the way you are handling this issue about invites. You had concerns that you posted on the public forum and asked the Tribe for their opinions on the matter. That shows that you are open, honest, and respect the feelings of others. Please don’t feel that this issue has anything to do with you personally, it’s just what Sbin feels is in the best interest of the raid and everyone involved. I would love to see you become a regular. Just persevere and give it your best, which is all that we ask.
-Dentik
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#11
I think Dentik said it best. While I am totally for seeing an all Ironsong raid... until we have enough skilled and geared people for it, its likely not going to happen.

It can be argued all day and night that gear shouldn't matter when skill comes into question but, as any raid leader knows... skill doesn't come without being decently geared. Sure a person can have a maximum gear score and be pulling crappy DPS, but at least the potential for higher DPS is there, and likely, they just aren't really paying enough attention to what they are doing to get their numbers up. A poorly geared person can be pulling their maximum DPS and be fully attentive and know their class to the "T".... but if they're gear/stats do not allow their DPS to be higher... then they have no room for improvement. Raiding is literally a numbers game. When I first started my 10-man ICC... It was a spur of the moment thing and we didn't do so hot those first few runs. Once I sat down and went by the numbers, researching gear scores and talent calculators... we started seeing a major improvement.

Raid balance, as mentioned before, is also a key priority. As I explained to someone back in Vanilla WoW ( over a similiar issue), No raid will succeed without balance. It does a raid no good to have 20 Healers, 1 tank, and 4 DPSers. While that is an extreme example, any way you spin the numbers... there has to be balance. Balance goes further than just DPS, Heals, and Tanks, too... Just balancing a 10man raid with the right TYPE of healers, the right spec of druid, the right spec of tankadins and retadins.... its not easy. And then you've got to weigh in the benefits from having a healing shaman or a melee dps shaman... or a caster shaman. The raid leaders need to be almost as well versed in every single class as the players that play the role. Its not any easy job deciding invites, believe me. I can't even imagine trying to balance out a 25man raid right now... and this is coming from someone who led raids in Evercrack... where orginally, there was no raid channel, there was no raid group.... you had 20 different 5 man groups to control.... while racing to beat the other raid that had just as many people, because each zone was open to everyone. ( man those days were fun).

Until we can fully facilitate and balance out a 25man raid set with only guild members, its not going to happen, as much as any of us would like to see it.

As for Roleplaying in a raid? It won't happen until we are able to easy mode it all the way through to the last boss. At this point, we are only on the 5th and 6th bosses of a 14 boss raid instance. But, that also doesn't mean we can't storm the gates of Ahn' Qiraj for a little roleplay just for the fun of it.
[Image: 3994085VvROm.png]
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#12
Lucinther Wrote:But, that also doesn't mean we can't storm the gates of Ahn' Qiraj for a little roleplay just for the fun of it.
We did that at last nights Moot. Smile
[Image: 2295174RBdsr.png]
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#13
To clarify: what I meant by roleplaying during the raid was rp during down-time. (definitely not during the fights - I think we've all been there on the battlegrounds when someone started complaining about how we weren't doing so well and instead of doubling their efforts would end up causing the other side to win.) I would never interrupt the fight to make some smarmy comment and would hope that no one else would either. Neither would it be right to rp while rolling for gear was going on - I know how frustrating that can be. Really, all I was suggesting was maybe while someone was afk or while we were waiting to get the party started. Maybe even a tid-bit before or after the boss was downed or after we were done for the evening. <shrugs>

Thank you for all your comments, by the way, it was most insightful. It makes me feel a lot better about the raiding invites and hope that others in the guild who are not invited to the raids most of the time can take some comfort out of the comments above.
And now for something completely different...
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