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ICC 25-man Expectations and Discussion
The officers and a few other raid leaders have been having an extended discussion about the ICC 25-man. As we enter this last, most difficult content in the Wrath expansion, we are going to have to step up our game a bit in order to make progress. Also, I want to be completely transparent about invite procedures and expectations on raid members as we move forward.

1. Invites and gear expectations: You must have an appropriate level of gear to raid in ICC and thus, be eligible for invites to the raid. I have tried to explain my invite priorities here (<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.ironsongtribe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=5095&p=27990#p27990">viewtopic.php?f=77&t=5095&p=27990#p27990</a><!-- l -->). A good website to judge the preparedness of you gear is <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wow-heroes.com">http://www.wow-heroes.com</a><!-- m --> . This makes it fairly obvious where you are. We also expect that your gear is fully enchanted and gemmed, that you have met whatever hit, expertise, etc... requirements that are necessary for you class, and that you have some raiding experience. In most circumstances, ICC is not for new raiders. To gear-up, run random heroics. Saturday nights, the tribe is organizing 5-mans and this would be a good time to get your gear.

2. Right now, DPS is our biggest problem in ICC. We need to increase it in order to have an easier time with the bosses that we have already downed, and to progress on new bosses. Our expectation is 4k DPS for now from all DPS. This will increase as we move deeper into ICC. This number is a guideline, though when I put the raid together, I have to make choices that will give us the best chances for success. The higher your DPS, the more likely it is that you will make it into the raid on a regular basis.

In order to improve your DPS, I recommend that you have the appropriate spec. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wowpopular.com/">http://www.wowpopular.com/</a><!-- m --> is a good site to see what the most popular specs are for you class. They are popular for a reason. Enchanting, gemming, meeting the hit cap, etc... also contribute to high DPS. Finallly, I post the combat stats for the raid here (<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.ironsongtribe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=4790">viewtopic.php?f=77&t=4790</a><!-- l -->). Take a look at it and compare what you are doing to others. I will try and post a log for every raid. One think to look at is % of active time. This should be greater than 80%.

To help people improve your DPS, we plan to hold a DPS workshop in the near future. In addition, I am looking for DPS/Class leads. If you are willing to volunteer for this, respond to this thread.

One last thing on DPS is we need to make sure that we keep DPS buffs up on the raid, such as Battle Shout and Trueshot Aura. Our analysis of the logs indicated that we frequently let these types of things drop, which hurts our overall DPS.

3. Finallly, I am looking for some volunteers to fill some class roles for raid balance. These would be Shadow Priest, Elemental Shaman, Enhance Shaman. Don't switch spec or gear before talking to me.

4. As always, this thread is also supposed to be a discussion. In particular, I am interested to hear your ideas on how to increase our raid DPS.

Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
I am willing to go full Shadow Priest for your raids if you cannot find someone better geared. This would also be a complete switch on roles including the gear I roll on. I will always have a healing spec for whenever necessary (Discipline).

I am also able to switch in and out between Thanny and Attaroa.

To add, if you have questions about things, ask! There are more than enough helpful people around who could help you maximize your dps. It's going to get hard here in ICC and if advice is given to you, heed it. No one here would give advice out of anything but concern and friendship.

I also highly recommend downloading recount. Yes, I know, some people don't like it, but whatever, it's a tool. Worry about where YOU are. Gauge YOURSELF. If you see your numbers go up, excellent, something's going right. If you see a drop compared to what you usually see on a fight as yourself "what am I doing different or where am I falling short?" That's all I use recount for and I am content.
Keep in mind when we're talking about switching out classes, we're looking to optimize buff synergy as much as possible, not get "just another" DPSer. Even then, that class needs to have suitable gear for our target content. I would love to take my elemental shaman when we have multiple rets in the raid, but unfortunately, my shaman gear is not nearly ready for ICC 25. Sad

If any DPSers have questions or concerns about their own performance/spec/itemization, I'd be happy to give out pointers or, if I don't know, help them research.

As much bad press as dps meters get, the are still quite useful tools when used properly. An example from my own personal experience:
Going into OS as a young L80 ret after having spent most of my paladin raid experience as a healer. There was another ret there who was doing 30% or so more DPS than me while having maybe 10% better gearing. After looking at recount and seeing what output he was getting from various abilities, I was able to adapt my playstyle and, on the next raid, my dps was significantly improved. And it cost all of 0 coppers and no gear difference to get there.

Other quick tips:
1. Gems - You don't have to match every socket color and get every socket bonus. Blizzard intends socketing to be kind of a puzzle where you weigh the benefits of a socket bonus vs what you lose by using your favorite +str/agi/sp red gem. Sometimes it's worth it, but many times it's not. Like for me, if I have a blue and yellow socket that gives me a +armor pen bonus I say "forget that" and go for 2 shiny red str gems. The main thing is matching the requirements for the meta. Alot of people forget about the trusty [item]Nightmare Tear[/item], which is prismatic and matches all 3 colors at once.

2. Spec - While there are generally no "worthless" talents, there are many talents that are either pvp talents and inappropriate for raiding, or talents that are better for soloing and farming, or there are talents that are of lesser value than another choice. Sometimes it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers and that's where a little research on sites like elitistjerks.com are helpful.

3. Gear - Capping out hit for special attacks should be a priority. This 9% for melee and 17% for casters (minus any +hit talents). Melee should also be trying to get 25 expertise to avoid getting dodged. (You should also be attacking from behind your target so as not to get blocked/parried.)
[Image: IST_Noodle2_sm.jpg]
- I know that the hunters tend to try and keep all three specs represented if at all possible, to have all the possible raid buffs available. (TSA, FI, Replenishment, etc...) Fabulus sometimes organizes some spec-dancing to make sure we have them covered, he has really been... his name... at organizing that.

- DPS might look into being ready to switch specs for some fights based on movement, resistances, mob numbers, etc... I know the mages often do this due to the latest patch.

- In bygone lvl 60 days, we had class-only channels - if any class feels that would be useful for them and specific and detailed tips during the raid. The trick is to make sure such channel stays useful and respectful. These are most often useful for new fights and after every patch, both the patch notes and hidden changes.

* Oh, and very sorry to miss most Tuesdays and cause any raid makeup issues - it is my chorus rehearsal night. (Feel free to ask me about it if you see me online.)

- Phoronid.
I'll gladly volunteer for any DPS consultation. I specialize in mage, but I'm familiar with several other classes.
Getting better gear has always been the biggest challenge. I would recommend doing 25man runs through tournament of champions and Ulduar. Would it be possible to see these on the calendar?

Anyone know a good website to figure out what to aim for for specs such as hit caps and crit caps etc.

- Mula
These are hunter specific in some cases, but this should get some folks going, hopefully. Just a few I have bookmarked:

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wowhead.com">www.wowhead.com</a><!-- w --> – search for abilities and talents and read the comments

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.worldofwarcraft.com">www.worldofwarcraft.com</a><!-- w --> – the stickies in the class forums can be very useful, the non stickied are usually not as useful, and sometimes horrid.

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wow.com">www.wow.com</a><!-- w --> – always read the comments to see if there were any clear errors in the article

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.femaledwarf.com">www.femaledwarf.com</a><!-- w --> - Hunter specific gear DPS check. Very thorough and all math. A great site for gear upgrades or figuring out the funkiness.

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hunterloot.com">www.hunterloot.com</a><!-- w --> – All loot is hunter loot, but some loots are better then other loots. This another loot site. Each uses different ratings, so good to look at many.

wowwebstats.com - Raidwide stats, often done by one raid member and posted for analysis

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wow-petopia.com">www.wow-petopia.com</a><!-- w --> - Best site on the internet for hunter pets.

elitistjerks.com/forums.php - Theory crafting at it’s most complex. Amazing, but not for the new theory crafter

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.worldofraids.com">www.worldofraids.com</a><!-- w --> - General raiding database

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wowpopular.com">www.wowpopular.com</a><!-- w --> – Popular talent builds. A key look for polishing your build.

Hope these can get folks started!

- Phoronid
Another good resource is rawr (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr">http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr</a><!-- m -->).

Also, <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://gear-wishlist.appspot.com/">http://gear-wishlist.appspot.com/</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit">http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit">http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit</a><!-- m -->

BTW, excellent job last night from our DPS. It was significantly improved, and it made a big difference in our ability to get two one-shots.
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
Here is a link to a typical composition to our raid, which of course, varies quite a bit. This at least give an idea of what buffs are covered or not.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=ueegh5ffjjam4qa971at666od000000000000000">http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=uee ... 0000000000</a><!-- m -->

A couple of comments:

1. A blood DK or a marksman hunter to get the attack power buff are kind of hit and miss for us.
2. When Shantow comes we get the +hit bonus. Otherwise we are missing that. A shadow priest or another moonkin would be nice.
3. This kind of relates to #2, but we need healers who can dual spec into a viable DPS role. This would include elemental shaman, shadow priests, and moonkins. Quite often, we can have just enough healing. Thus, we need the viable dual specs. Who among our healers fits into that category?
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
Me (Discipline/Shadow Priest)...however I will need help to gear my off spec sufficiently for Icecrown and the DPS expectations. I never know what to roll on anymore because I have been swapping specs every other raid recently.
My moonkin gear is pretty good, and I always bring the gear and secondary spec with me to the raid if you ever need me to switch.
Yes, I know it's difficult to know what to roll on. Because of the variability in the raid lineup, we need a few people that are able to go both ways, healing and DPS. The way I see it is that Eru and Dentik will be healing most of the time, but there might be instances that we need the moonkin or shadow priest buffs which would necessitate you going DPS. My suggestion is to build your healing set first, and DPS set as you can. I am willing to accept a lower gear level for the sake of the raid-wide buff. When Shantow is in the raid, most likely you two will be healing.

Now, Oryx might be going elemental more often because we don't have an alternative on the roster. Nevertheless, if we don't have enough healers, which does happen, Oryx will be healing.

That may be the best I can do.

Any other suggestions?

Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
Just confirming what Jaba said, since I realized I hadn't posted formally in this thread -- I'm building out my ToC-level Elemental set right now so I will be able to switch hit if needed. My Emblems of Frost will be reserved for healing gear until it becomes clear that a DPS role would be more important.

Edit: I also wrote up a Elemental DPS guide since we didn't have one posted.
Oryx - Jadox - Koryx - Atorax - Cabochon - Hargrim - Morwen - Stillweaver - Talindrys
Just to elaborate on the raid policies, I found just a tiny bit of math for the DPS folks: a.k.a. Have I got my DPS high enough for our place in ICC yet?

ICC 10/25 – The DPS Check bosses.


25 man - Assuming two tanks doing a consistent 2000 dps, with 5 healers doing none, the 18 dps will need a consistent 7200 dps per player to beat enrage.

10 man - 5600 per player with 5 dps in ten man.

Blood Queen:

More than any other encounter in Icecrown to this point Lana'thel will require DPS to be outputting everything their class can output.

25 man - Assuming two tanks doing a consistent 2000 dps, with 5 healers doing none, the 18 dps will need a consistent 9711 dps per player to beat enrage.

10 man - 7806 per player with 5 dps in ten man.

- - -

Festergut is only 1 or 2 bosses after Deathbringer Saurfang.

Blood Queen is well over half way through.

I got the data from wowwiki, FYI

Hope this helps!

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