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For the good of the raid...
#1
I do not think we are as strict as we should be in the raids we are running..I think for the good of the raid and the raid leaders sanity that SOME MINOR policing is in order.Actually policing is a bit strong of a word..How about nicely pointing things out..

I am not saying become an anal raiding group like Wartorn ..I do not need to progress as fast or as uptight as Wartorn is about raiding...But guys...we are way too lax..and considering how awesome leadership,tanks,and healing is in this raid, do not think it is good or fair to the people that are really trying hard to progress.I feel they put up with too much for the sake of being nice and casual.

For example..No one cares what gear you have..You are asked what you do and that is it..If you are not good at it an "oh well,lets hope they get better" attitude seems to be taken.It seems leaderships only weakness is that they are a bit too nice ...

However..it is not mean to nicely point out to people that they could be playing better..and by doing so will help eveyone out in the raid including themselves.

Wartorn insists you be well geared,skilled and have a specific amount of dps on the meters..in NO WAY am I suggesting we get that anal on people or even close..

But...you should be making sure people are at least in the right gear for their spec...the gear they do have is enchanted as best as possible...and they have "deadly boss mods" so they can understand the timing of the fights better as well as get nice raid warnings when they are looking at their cooldowns or peoples health bars,telling them something is bad,like they need to move out of a shadow fissure or something like it...IF their computer wont handle the mod then fine...but if it can people have no excuse not to use this mod..Our raid leaders us it to lead the raid..show some respect and do the same so you do not have to be lead so much.

If you have tanks doing more dps than dps than something is wrong and someone needs to figure out what that player is doing wrong and kindly guide them to doing it right...Sitting back and hoping they figure it out eventually is not good for the raid...

Example and the big reason why I am piping off:

I will not mention names...there was a player trying to dps in tank gear doing 900-1100 dps.I asked him why he is in tank gear and he said cause the armor was better...Clearly not a clue what he is doing and in bad need of some guidance..I nicely pointed out to him that he isnt being hit so things like armor and defense do not matter,and what should matter when you are trying to dps in a raid is attack power and crit and STR or AGI depending.(str in his case) He told me that stuff was in his bank and that he would have it if it wasnt such a pain to switch it out..then I showed him "itemrack" and how I was able to switch out...I showed/pointed out many other things as well..Point is,he was VERY receptive to it..I mean WHO DOESNT WANT TO BECOME A BETTER PLAYER??? Serioulsy?? I hate to sound mean..but people unwilling to take direction or constructive critisizm have no business raiding with others..This is a cooperative effort and everyone needs to be on the same page.'


Please do not tell me that "we are not a raiding guild" I do not want to hear that. I know this..I know we are casual. I am saying we are a bit too casual and we should tighten up the raid a LITTLE and I do stress the word LITTLE.

I do not think we need to police anything that is not GLARINGLY bad..I am NOT saying we need to be anal like Wartorn or other raiding guilds.

But people need to get "deadly boss mods" if their computer can run it.It is a very non intrusive,very useful mod..Our raid leaders use it to tell us what to do in vent.Why not know what is going on if you can right??
people need to be in the right spec.many people have crunched numbers and know what the best spec's are for what you are doing.Whether it be healing,dps or tanking..Do some research and see if you can eek out some better numbers with a minor build tweak.
people need to be in the right gear for their spec..If you are dpsing you shouldnt be wearing tank gear..etc.
people need to gem and enchant the gear they have..its merely gold and though the upgrades are minor..raid wide they really add up quick.If 10 people up their dps a mere 100 points,that is 1000 dps!! It adds up really fast.
people need to be in Ventrilo if their computer can run it.

Numbers are of no consiquence unless they are way too lame.a person in blues and greens can do 1800 dps with raid buffs..So it is not hard to get over 2k and as your gear gets better that number will slowly increase.

I am in no way trying to tell anyone how to run their raid..Or telling people how to play..I am fine with the progression the way it stands as I feel our raid is overall very sucessfull..But I have seen way too much /fail when it comes to simple things such as mods,vent,and gemming/enchanting.,and I suggest we do something about it because it is really easy and basic to fix the above.

So if you have something not enchanted...Enchant it!!!!
IF you dont have a gem in a slot...Fill it!!!
If you dont have vent..Get it!!
If you arent sure what build has the best dps...research it!!!
If someone gives you a friendly suggestion...listen to it!!!
If your computer can run deadly boss mods...google it!!!

Also..to help leadership out..If you see someone doing something wrong..Or not playing to their potential..A polite suggestion can go a long way.This post is for everyone in the raid.

Please understand I am not trying to run anything..I am merely trying to help the raid out..


Bovi
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#2
Some people can be sensitive about criticisms, but it is good to remind everyone about some of the things you mentioned. In particular coming to raid prepared is important. If you are a "casual raider" you should theoretically have the time outside of raid to furnish yourself with gems and enchants. That is being respectful to the others who invest the time to raid because you are maximizing your potential and the raid's success. As for gear and ability I think that is a matter best handled discreetly. The policy in the 10 man Ulduar and 25 man Naxx that I run is to inform the raid leader of any player deficiencies so that they can be addressed diplomatically and it takes the onus off of the raid members. I have had players leave my raids due to other players trying to give them advice, and in some cases I already felt that those players were doing their jobs to my satisfaction. That being said I was pleased to make some progress last night, and I commend everyone for their maturity and kindness, these are things that are sorely lacking outside the guild as I've experienced puging a few raids recently.
-Donalzon

“He lives not long who battles with the immortals, nor do his children prattle about his knees when he has come back from battle and the dead fray.”

Homer, The Iliad
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#3
Bovi Wrote:However..it is not mean to nicely point out to people that they could be playing better..and by doing so will help eveyone out in the raid including themselves.

Very well. Bovi, you were 14th in overall damage friday, just slightly above me. You were almost overtaken by Zlinka, who was only there for the final two Auriaya fights, which I believe were the only two you missed. I would recommend talking to one of our other death knights about ways to improve.

Quote:Also..to help leadership out..If you see someone doing something wrong..Or not playing to their potential..A polite suggestion can go a long way.This post is for everyone in the raid.

This is actually against our "no coaching" rule. If you have an issue with how someone else is performing, bring it up with an officer and we will talk to them.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
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#4
We have been down this road before, and the outcome is not one that I care to repeat, namely, a split in the guild that ended up with a lot of people leaving.

A lot of you suggestions are very good, Bovi. Most of them are in our raid rules and guidelines for raiding. I will update those posts to remind everyone of them. The problem is that there is no way to enforce these things short of tactics by the raid leader that I do not care to do. The hallmarks of our raids are their openness and friendliness, as well as progression. So far, we have been able to do these things. We must remember that this is a game, and people log on to relax and have fun. This is a fine line in end game raiding. Putting pressure on members to perform or conform can lead to bad feelings. An under-performing raid can lead to repeated wipes and no fun for anybody.

Thus, our way has been to make suggestions to our raiders and encourage them to be the best that they can be without being the gear or DPS-meter police. Let me repeat those rules and suggestions here, as it has been awhile since they were made in a public forum.

Our rules:

1. We do have a "no coaching" rule. Please communicate with the raid leader or officer about issues with another player.
2. Keep vent clear during strategy discussions and instructions. I will usually ask for input after giving my instructions.
3. We are a PG-13 raid in terms of language.
4. Don't engage in behavior that is counter to our goals as a casual, family-oriented raid with the goals of fun, inclusiveness, and progression.

Our suggestions to players:

1. You are expected to have gear appropriate to the instance and your role.
2. You are expected to have gemmed and enchanted your gear for your role in the raid. The tribe officers and bank is available to help you out with this.
3. You are expected to be familiar with the fights by reviewing wowwiki.com and bosskillers.com
4. You are expected to have a boss mod (Bigwigs or DBM). If you are DPS, you should have Omen threat meter. I personally feel that other mods (healing, class-specific, ...) can be useful and help with raid performance, but that is just a suggestion and not a requirement.

Therefore, I would ask the raid members to review the rules and suggestions, and try to conform to the best of their abilities. Please contact me with questions about the 25-man raids.

-Jaba

PS: One more thing is to be careful about gauging performance exclusively with the DPS meter.
Have Mana Tide, Will Travel
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#5
Kosath Wrote:
Bovi Wrote:However..it is not mean to nicely point out to people that they could be playing better..and by doing so will help eveyone out in the raid including themselves.

Very well. Bovi, you were 14th in overall damage friday, just slightly above me. You were almost overtaken by Zlinka, who was only there for the final two Auriaya fights, which I believe were the only two you missed. I would recommend talking to one of our other death knights about ways to improve.

Quote:Also..to help leadership out..If you see someone doing something wrong..Or not playing to their potential..A polite suggestion can go a long way.This post is for everyone in the raid.

This is actually against our "no coaching" rule. If you have an issue with how someone else is performing, bring it up with an officer and we will talk to them.

What fight was that?? The one I was tanking in perhaps?? I am always in the top ten (usually top5) on dps in our raids when I am not tanking,and I am usually the top DK on dps. Last Friday I was tanking rubble so I am not surprised my dps dropped.

The Auriaya fights was the one with the cats right?? Yeah I was there and I was tanking the Cat with the red X over its head.Kosath I was tanking most of that night.. I am one of the best Dk's on the server my friend and since I am almost always the top dps amongst Dk's in our raids I am not sure which Death Knight you can reccomend for me to grab advice from. I appreciate your help but I think you werent paying quite enough attention to what was actually going on. If you had,you would have seen me cast my gate and re-encant my rune for tanking on my weapon and get summond back.You would have seen me in my tank gear,tanking,and that would instantly explain my lack of dps...When I see someone's dps numbers drop I usually check their gear..and then their spec..

Plus..overall damage doesnt mean a whole hell of a lot..It is DAMAGE PER SECOND DPS that really matters Smile Say I wasnt tanking for a moment..I could have been afk a lot..or have died a lot early in fights,or have had connection issues bringing that number down.So I reccomend you click your recount (or whatever you use) another page over and get it on the DPS numbers.I also reccomend you look at someones gear and what they are doing before you assume their dps is sub par.

Bovi
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#6
I would like to say that I am not displeased with the raid in any way,and I hope this post was not misleading people into thinking I am a raid nazi or a jerk..I am merely trying to help the newer people who do not know much about life after 80.

If anyone needs help gemming/enchanting their gear..or obtaining gear from Heroics,or battlegrounds..I am more than happy to help.

Bovi
Reply
#7
Bovi Wrote:I would like to say that I am not displeased with the raid in any way,and I hope this post was not misleading people into thinking I am a raid nazi or a jerk..I am merely trying to help the newer people who do not know much about life after 80.

If anyone needs help gemming/enchanting their gear..or obtaining gear from Heroics,or battlegrounds..I am more than happy to help.

Bovi

Ummmm, yeah thats exactly the impression I got from your posts. DPS/Healing values are only posted for peoples curiosity and it does not dictate anything. I understand some of what you are saying...underlying what all I see is complaining, is a desire to help out our raid, which is a noble act that we all appreciate. We are progressing at a faster rate than Ironsong has since what...Akora's time? We are downing bosses, making progress, seeing content and having a fun time doing it, that is what is important. Its not a race...the content will still be there and we will get to the end when we get to the end.

Stop, relax, breath, and think before you post on issues like this. This puts that person down big time, do it privately with the Raid Leader, they will make the decision. Suggestions/advice to an individual player should be done privately and politely without accusation or dictation. What you wrote is not being respectful at all in my opinion. Not to mention you, who are new to the tribe, are questioning raiding philosophies that Ironsong has had since Molten Core. Now I dont like quoting people but you yourself said that your a PvP'er. Well keep the PvP mentality to yourself during raids. In my opinion It can conflict with people trying to enjoy themselves.

Go here http://www.ironsongtribe.com/forum/viewt...=41&t=3947 . I am assuming that Jaba still uses this as a guideling when facilitating HIS raids. This conveys alot of how most of IST raiders think. We are there to have fun, each of us has the potential and the capibility to improve our characters ourselves and make our own choices based on our preffered playstyle (Popularity does not dictate this). Dentik is making a push beyond that recently by utilizing the guild bank and generosity of our Tribe, which after he started, saw a mass of useful items, materials, gems, enchants, GOLD (Axulia you have a generous heart).

I apologize for any offense to anyone, but these are my thoughts on the subject.
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#8
I get what Bovi is saying here. Basically, if someone has a gear rating of pre heroics, they don't have much business being in Ulduar 25.

And if the IST was a hardcore raiding guild I would agree with that.

However, as the IST comes from the position of having fun, I can see them bringing someone like that to a raid just because the person has never been there and wants to experience it.

I think, and this is my opinion, that your vision of what IST raids are like and "supposed" to be like are different.

I invite you to just enjoy the ride and have fun, when you raid for fun, the stress and pressure of being the best, or equipping your character with the best gear becomes less of a "need".
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