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Zlinka

10-man Raiding Proposal, Open Discussion
#1
Last edit: Removed sticky status. See new plan proposal.

Edit: While the specifics of this idea are defunct for the time being, the discussion it has provoked is extremely productive. I encourage folks to read the ideas presented by many here, and offer what input you can. Thanks.

I have been kicking this idea around for a few weeks, and I am ready to present it for discussion. I would like to hear feedback from everyone, including those who raid with our groups but are not in Ironsong. This will not be a unilateral decision, and in order for it to work, everyone needs to be willing to give it a try.

Basically, I want to mix the three Karazhan groups we have going and set up a method for rotating new folks in more easily.

First, let me present the reasons:

1) I believe this will help communication between the various groups as well as get people grouping that hardly ever see eachother any more. For instance, I could count on one hand the number of times I've grouped with certain other tanks.

2) This will improve the feeling of "advancing together". In our moots in the past, we included announcements of where we were going next and celebrations of the things we had accomplished. We have lost that since the early days of the expansion, because the guild as a whole has not been able to celebrate the victories of the smaller groups.

3) It will even out and improve gear, making the 25-mans more feasible. Mixing the groups will help filter in more people as well as boost those behind the curve.

Now on that last point, I know it could be seen as self-serving on my part, but most of you know me better than to think my goals in this game have anything to do with gear. I am focused on goals 1 and 2, and 3 is the by-product that helps further facilitate my goals.

I'm aware of the logisitical problems associated with this, and I believe I have some solutions.

The main thing is scheduling. Right now the 3 existing groups have 1 or 2 nights they raid but on different days. What I propose is a system similar to how Leftovers did it, but on a much smaller scale. We use the website for people to sign up, telling us what days they are available for a given week (at least a week in advance obviously), and we set up the necessary class balance while making sure that the same people are available on the same 2 days, or one person on each day who can't attend the other. We will also do something we did in the past in the background, which is keep couples/family grouped together.

Yes, it's a lot of work, but I feel it needs to be done.

Now the down sides. This would effectively break up the 3 existing groups. The two more advanced groups may have to take 1 step back, but in the long run they'll be taking 2 steps forward. You may wipe again on an encounter that you fealt was trivial before, but I can tell you from past experience that this method ultimately builds a much larger and more flexible core group.

Comraderie and teamwork are also an issue. This will be the saddest side of it for certain, and the part that gives me pause as well. But I'm hoping a broader form of this can be developed again like we had prior to TBC.

Those invites from outside the guild will, of course, be included. We just need to be sure that all of them are included in the "friends of Ironsong" user group so they have access.

I have already discussed this with Efluvious, Sound, and Damoxian. I believe we are all in agreement that this is something that should be done for the good of the Tribe as a whole. We have enough people who are willing to step up as experienced leaders to make it work, and it will let us clearly answer the question of "how do I join a Karazhan raid?"

I know this may be asking a lot of some folks, and I can only hope that you will feel the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks.

Let me know what you think. Thanks,
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
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#2
I raid Kara with Bloodbound, so this wouldn't affect me right away (until ZA at least, most likely). Still, it's something I thought about when the idea was first brought up, and I personally don't like the idea. This seems like it should be something up to the raid groups, rather than being blanket-mandated.

The early part of any raid is the hard part. The way I see it, rotating people in after that's done, but before the people that put in the work to get there have the gear they wanted, is pretty unfair to those that worked at it. If the people in the group are fine with it, great, but it seems like it'd be far better to leave that up to the raid groups, rather than enforcing something. Sometimes you end up going after one specific piece of gear, even if the rest of the stuff available isn't upgrades (especially with Prince drops, like Gorehowl or t4 headpiece). With a regular group, you know that eventually that stupid item will drop, and nobody else will be left that needs it. With this change, that guarantee is gone, and that would be /really/ frustrating sometimes.

A really major concern of mine is that this change will also make it a lot more about loot, and less about comraderie. With my current group, I know that if I pass to someone else on an item that I want, then I've got better odds of getting it next time it drops. If the groups are changing, then I'm going to be a lot less likely to pass on item X, because in the future, my group will be different, and there's a good chance that some new person will need item X, or that I'll be shuffled out before it drops again.

Another major concern I'd have would be determining who's eligible to actually go. You can get keyed for Kara long before you're geared for Kara. I've seen it to some degree with Gruul, where we get folks in a lot of greens and low-blues. That's less of an impact in a 25-man, but if you've got a few weaker links in Kara, that's going to make it a lot harder, and a lot more frustrating for folks.

The combination of sign-ups and needing to fill raid roles seems like a hard one too. I can easily imagine a situation where someone signs up, but isn't well-enough geared for their role, or where a raid just doesn't get enough sign-ups and can't go at all. With a steady group, everyone knows that they're going X day for Y time, and if they can't make that, they let the raid leader know and the leader can find an alternate. Doing it with sign-ups is going to make that process a /lot/ more of a crapshoot.

It'll also be harder to deal with problems, without a set raid group. If someone's flaky in a regular group, the raid leader can just give 'em the boot, and find someone else. I'm not sure that would work in this case. Likewise for someone who needs to get some more practice at grouping, or needs to improve gear, etc. It's the knd of problem you hope you won't have, but it's going to come up at some point.

Personally, I see a lot of downsides, and pretty small upsides. In 40-man stuff, you could have 3 or 4 really well-geared and experienced players, and whoever else past that wasn't such a huge deal. For 10-man stuff, you really need everyone to be on par.
[Image: 2270166Iryxy.png]
Dromand (70 Tank/Healing Paladin), Logros (70 Enhancement Shaman), Denul (70 Shadow Priest), Bendon (70 AH-Mule Rogue)
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#3
This first part is to Team Smash and Grab. If you don't want to read inside jokes, etc, skip down to the next part.

As Kosath stated, I am for this proposal for a number of reasons. But first, I just have to say, I LOVE you guys; the people with whom I raid. Team Smash and Grab has developed not just a 'raiding team cohesion' (knowing when Vanea is going to pull agro/when Naruth is going to go just a little to close to the mobs/when I get naked and dance), but we've developed some very close friendships. There is no other reason that I am still playing World of Warcraft.
That being said, we have always had a rotation for other people from both our own guild, and other friendly guilds who are like-minded. When we couldn't get people, we'd do it with one or two slots missing even. We all know that there are many others that didn't get the chance to join one of the raiding teams that would like to come a bit more than once every two months.
I remember when I first joined the Ironsong Tribe. I was wait-listed every other MC unless we were short numbers and every other ZG until I started to bring Grom. It was frustrating to come home from a 12 hour work day, wait for an hour, not get in and have no one to do anything with since they were all in the respective zone. I thought myself capable, if undergeared a bit. This is why I want this to happen: so others aren't excluded and so we can get to know some of the newer ones/people we never got to know better.
I know some of you are NOT for this at all. Overall, our 'raiding' in kharazan will take a hit. I don't know if I'll enjoy it as much either. It is a gamble in that sense, but I think it is worth it. I also don't really think of this as the breaking up of Team SnG. Zul'aman is coming up, and we're going to have to learn a new instance. What is happening to the Kharazan teams will happen to ZA as well after a while, but in the mean time, we'll have lots of Bear Butt corners/lightwell dancing/screwing around together still.
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For the Tribe
I speak only for myself in this thread btw, not for the entire team.

I am very much for this proposal. I will always be there to tank/dps or banish/seduce as the case may be (schedule permitting). I also look forward to getting to know more of you better!
Logros does bring up some very valid points, which I think Kosath mentioned as well. The raiding and item gaining progression will slow for those of us who are more motivated. The tribe never has been about that though (I believe the tribe has even asked that we not be included in content progression threads on the forums). The respective teams have put a LOT of effort into the progress that they have made: we learned each fight through a lot of frustration and many many wipes (remember the early days of the Shade of Aran? <shudders> ). We've helped each other farm for gear that was needed for certain fights (like my Frost resist breastplate for the shade) So there's my $2 (since it was waay more than 2 cents).
There are bugs that will need to be worked out obviously, and it will be an all new system which is always uncomfortable at first.


Now my concern (which Logros brought up): What if someone that signed up for a certain day and time doesn't show? This is probably my biggest pet peeve in a raiding situation. That and afks every 5 minutes(unless we can keep pulling without that person).
"Passion and shame torment him, and rage is mingled with his grief."

~Virgil~
[Image: playerfeed_1902018_bigsig.gif]
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#4
Well, I had hoped the very first response wouldn't be quite that negative, but I will respond to your concerns one at a time:

Quote:This seems like it should be something up to the raid groups, rather than being blanket-mandated. The early part of any raid is the hard part.

The way I see it, rotating people in after that's done, but before the people that put in the work to get there have the gear they wanted, is pretty unfair to those that worked at it. If the people in the group are fine with it, great, but it seems like it'd be far better to leave that up to the raid groups, rather than enforcing something.

This IS something that is up to the raid groups. That's why it's an open discussion and not "New 10-man raiding rules". I am clearly asking them to accept that their "phat lewts" will take a hit for a short time in order to help others.

Quote:Sometimes you end up going after one specific piece of gear, even if the rest of the stuff available isn't upgrades (especially with Prince drops, like Gorehowl or t4 headpiece). With a regular group, you know that eventually that stupid item will drop, and nobody else will be left that needs it. With this change, that guarantee is gone, and that would be /really/ frustrating sometimes.

This is true, however you list the upside by this very argument. All of that loot that would otherwise be wasted has a greater chance of finding a home. Not to mention, loot has never been the primary goal of Ironsong raiding.

Quote:A really major concern of mine is that this change will also make it a lot more about loot, and less about comraderie. With my current group, I know that if I pass to someone else on an item that I want, then I've got better odds of getting it next time it drops. If the groups are changing, then I'm going to be a lot less likely to pass on item X, because in the future, my group will be different, and there's a good chance that some new person will need item X, or that I'll be shuffled out before it drops again.

I gotta say Logros, this part confuses me. You're saying it would make the run more about loot, yet at the same time you're example of comraderie is already about loot. The entire process is about spreading the wealth.

Quote:Another major concern I'd have would be determining who's eligible to actually go. You can get keyed for Kara long before you're geared for Kara. I've seen it to some degree with Gruul, where we get folks in a lot of greens and low-blues. That's less of an impact in a 25-man, but if you've got a few weaker links in Kara, that's going to make it a lot harder, and a lot more frustrating for folks.

I think I can say with some confidence that our existing groups have already rotated people in who were geared exactly as you described, and things were fine. I'm not going to assign 9 new people and 1 person who has cleared it to the same group. Please give me a little credit here.

Quote:The combination of sign-ups and needing to fill raid roles seems like a hard one too. I can easily imagine a situation where someone signs up, but isn't well-enough geared for their role, or where a raid just doesn't get enough sign-ups and can't go at all. With a steady group, everyone knows that they're going X day for Y time, and if they can't make that, they let the raid leader know and the leader can find an alternate. Doing it with sign-ups is going to make that process a /lot/ more of a crapshoot.

I think you misunderstand my idea for sign ups. No one is signing up for a specific raid. You will mark available days on the calendar that you would like to go, and the groups will be organized based on that. For instance, you could mark down 5 days in the week as available, but you would only be assigned to two of them. If there are an uneven number of people overall, then adjustments would be made to rotate folks in as best we can, or use alts in places. It will require some footwork.

Quote:It'll also be harder to deal with problems, without a set raid group. If someone's flaky in a regular group, the raid leader can just give 'em the boot, and find someone else. I'm not sure that would work in this case. Likewise for someone who needs to get some more practice at grouping, or needs to improve gear, etc. It's the knd of problem you hope you won't have, but it's going to come up at some point.

This confuses me as well. All of this is already covered by our raiding rules, and we're all (mostly) in the same guild. If someone needs improvement, we tell them in a constructive way and help them or give tips. What you describe are raid guild problems in very draconian structures, and we have a better way of doing things.

Quote:Personally, I see a lot of downsides, and pretty small upsides.

Sorry Logros, but I have to disagree with this entirely. The downsides you described are almost entirely loot related or stem from an unclear description of the system. The upsides are very clear with regard to expanded interaction among the Tribe and blanket advancement.
Kosath Whitehorn
"The Tribe is my weapon.  I am their shield."
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#5
I support any attempt to make raiding more accessible to the rest of the tribe. Frankly, it really sucks that there are a number of people who can't gain access to the content they want to enjoy. Ironsong is ultimately about helping each other enjoy the game. I am, of course, sad to say 'goodbye' to Entourage; there's definitely something to be said about grouping with the same dear friends time and time again.


Efluvious Wrote:.... This is probably my biggest pet peeve in a raiding situation. That and afks every 5 minutes(unless we can keep pulling without that person).

Wandering off the main topic, but I'll toss in my personal 2 pence. This is actually one reason that I'm very comfortable with Entourage and somewhat nervous about mixing things up. With a full half of our group dealing with younglings, the frequent afk's that I (or Sreng) need are tolerated very well. Hungry baby > eight people waiting on me, healing be damned. This degree of saintly patience is something that I worry might not be present in a more random group of people (and why I rarely group with Fleet anywhere outside of KZ). Not there's anything wrong with being irritated by repeatedly having to sit and twiddle your thumbs! It's just a current hazard of grouping with me, and I've been lucky enough to have a group that doesn't mind too much. I'd hate to encounter a culture clash/mismatch where folks expectations of my capabilities don't coincide with reality.
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#6
I am, essentially, someone who has been rotated in from the beginning. So I really can't argue with this proposal. I was a founding member of Vanguard, have spent a lot of time with Smash and Grab when they need me to fill a healer role, and have gone on at least three raids with Discord's team. For these raids, I was in the learning phase of Attument and Moroes, the learning phase of the big dragon whose name I forget on the balcony, and the learning phase for the Shade, respectively. From bottom to top to middle. It's an interesting experience, to say the least. I even got in one run with Entourage. So? I've been in four different raids.

Each raid has it's own personality, and it's nice to be a part of those teams. I've enjoyed my time with each of them, even a couple of rough patches at the beginning there. They're all great players. They've always given freely to me. I haven't run with Vanguard recently, but when I run with S&G or Discord, I gear up insanely fast. By rotating more freshly-keyed characters into these raids, they will gear up very fast. I'm honestly not worried about them being "geared well enough" to enter Karazhan. Plus, with all of that experience to draw on from Elder Raiders, the learning curve will be much sharper.

The idea behind Ironsong raiding has always seemed to me to be about the social atmosphere it creates (and I'm a n00b, so I don't know the brains of the Officers). I got to go to Molten Core on my first day as a L60. I was so goram excited. Since BC came out, I haven't had a chance to see at least two dozen people in raid who I used to play with regularly. Some were hardcore, and some were casual.

I started MC the week after IST took down Ragnaros for the first time, and I was getting some nice gear off of the early bosses, which made me feel really welcome. Logros states that "The early part of any raid is the hard part. The way I see it, rotating people in after that's done, but before the people that put in the work to get there have the gear they wanted, is pretty unfair to those that worked at it." I don't see this as a problem, because it will welcome people into raiding, and the first couple weeks, it'll all be Attumen, Moroes, and the Maiden. Guess what? The Elder Raiders already have all that gear, and I highly doubt that they'll lose anything that they need to the Junior Raiders. Then, when you do get up to, say, the Prince (the only boss I haven't met), the Junior Raiders will probably understand that, hey, Waka hasn't seen Phat Lewts for three weeks, let's let her have the Awesome Chestpiece of Sweet-itude. So gear and "fairness" are the least of my worries.

I wanna raid with Ironsong again, not just a team!
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#7
As someone on the outside of Ironsong's raids looking in, I have to give this idea two thumbs up. This system will allow newer people the chance to raid and get to know new faces, as well as a chance to gain better gear (though, as Kosath said, gear only facilitates more raiding and therefore more bonding and other good times).

I don't think it's fair to assume new raiders would snatch and grab phat lootz from the current raiders, and I don't think it would be fair to deny them a piece of gear that they worked equally hard for (re: downing the boss with everyone). I've been through that game a couple times before and I can honestly say that, in my opinion, everyone that comes to a raid and participates deserves an equal chance in what comes from that effort.

I also don't think it's fair to look at someone's gear and assume they don't have any experience with raiding. You take one look at Viridis and see lame things, mostly from questing or pre-70 instances, and lump me in with newbs. Well, what you don't know is, I have seven months of pre-BC raiding under my belt and two other 70's, both of which have gone through Karazhan (and in the case of my priest, the server first Hydross and The Lurker Below kills). I've got the know how, but I ain't got the gear or the gumption to PuG through heroics to get what is called "pre-Karazan" stuff. I would love to get into the new things with you guys, like Gruul's and eventually Magtheridon - even beyond, in the future. I have been there with other groups, but I would like to experience your victories with you and enjoy even the most frustrating wipes along the path to learning an encounter. It's part of the fun of raiding. I just don't have the opportunity to break into it. Yet.

From Bovv: The easiest way to avoid the Karazhan drama that everyone complains about is to not rely on small set raid groups. That factionalizes your guild as an organization and creates a segregated atmosphere that leads to too many people left on the side. A more flexible rostering system helps prevent this.
Apparently, I'm such a good rogue that I should become a tank.
[Image: 216215SneNF.png]

I be huntin' rabbits!
[Image: 216222NVlZD.png]
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#8
Wakaraina Wrote:I started MC the week after IST took down Ragnaros for the first time, and I was getting some nice gear off of the early bosses, which made me feel really welcome. Logros states that "The early part of any raid is the hard part. The way I see it, rotating people in after that's done, but before the people that put in the work to get there have the gear they wanted, is pretty unfair to those that worked at it." I don't see this as a problem, because it will welcome people into raiding, and the first couple weeks, it'll all be Attumen, Moroes, and the Maiden. Guess what? The Elder Raiders already have all that gear, and I highly doubt that they'll lose anything that they need to the Junior Raiders. Then, when you do get up to, say, the Prince (the only boss I haven't met), the Junior Raiders will probably understand that, hey, Waka hasn't seen Phat Lewts for three weeks, let's let her have the Awesome Chestpiece of Sweet-itude. So gear and "fairness" are the least of my worries.

I largely agree with Wakaraina.
I'd also like to turn the 'fairness' argument on its head. I would much rather have Fleethoof "unfairly" lose out on a drop that I want and have raided for months to get than to have OtherIronsongMember unfairly lose out on the chance to go at all (*shakes her fist in the general direction of the Will of Arlokk*). I mean, I was lucky enough to be able to go and enjoy myself repeatedly, have fun learning some of the encounters, experience the content... gear is a bonus (albeit a necessary one to progress) above and beyond that. If the price of making sure I get my shiny new mace is that other tribemates don't get to experience the content at all, Blizz can take the mace and shove it.
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#9
Alright, we've heard a lot of feed back for the idea, but if this is going to work properly, we need open communication. We are going to have to discuss our concerns and own ideas and adjust appropriately to those concerns and possibly incorporate those ideas. This is a big change, lets get the bugs worked out!
"Passion and shame torment him, and rage is mingled with his grief."

~Virgil~
[Image: playerfeed_1902018_bigsig.gif]
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#10
I, too, have had a great deal of discussion about this with some of my current team-mates, Sound, Efluvious, and have come to the realization that while I can understand how this could possibly be a good idea -- and, honestly realize that it could work well, but personally... I don't like it at all. I like that until up to this point, we, as raiders, have been able to raid with whom we wanted, when we could, and get to mess around like we're comfortable doing. It's part of why i still enjoy playing the game. I don't think that our mentality of "I still play WoW because I play with friends that I really like playing with" was taken into account while this was thought up. It seems rather unfair to those who are in that frame of mind, to say "sorry, tough luck, go back to step one or two because I say so." Also a bit unfair for an officer who does not raid (consistantly) to lead this movement and assign raiding groups.

On another note, if so many people in the guild want to be raiding Kara, why is it that we can post in advance that there are going to be people absent, we can ask in guild, ISTLFG, and eventually out of guild, and still start raiding at 6.45 (45 minutes after raid is scheduled to start) very often? This seems completely and utterly unnecessary to have this sort of method to "reorganizing" raids, while 8 people are starting a 10 man raid and we cant even beg enough to get people to fill the last two spots (not one.. two.) It also seems that if there's enough interest (that we just aren't seeing), why not just make another team? So yet another group of people can learn the encounters from scratch like S&G Vanguard and Entourage did? Makes for a lot of blood, sweat and long hours, but really-- it's damn rewarding to say "hey, look what we did." followed by much freaking out.

I can say with the utmost confidence that "I know that if we go to a signup process, you will lose at least 4 solid raiders in the tribe (on mains anyway), myself included, and will most likely lose a few more" because we're playing (not just raiding) with who we want to be, and this could very well change our near sole reason for playing.
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#11
First, I'd like everyone to stop and take a deep breath.

Good? Okay.

Go back and read Kosath's original post if you need to, but I believe he was pretty clear when he said that this is a discussion, not a mandate. Whether or not we agree personally with the proposed raiding model here seems to have become overshadowed by some (reasonable) concern and misconception. Let's put a few things into perspective here:

1. This is a discussion of a possible change. Those of you who have been with us for a while can tell the newer members about the extremely short list of policies that have been implemented without the advice of the Tribe at large. We continue to take the opinions of the guild very seriously in all our decision-making.

2. That said, Ironsong is not about raiding for raiding's sake, boss progress, gear, or loot. I respect members who take these things seriously, and I enjoy them myself. However, when it comes to policy and decision-making, they are non-issues. Arguments based on this piece of loot or that piece of gear are not going to hold any water with me in this conversation.

3. Ironsong IS about friends, family, and roleplay. One of the most compelling arguments I've heard against this change thus far is that some of the established raids have developed a close bond with one another. They are concerned that this change would compromise their opportunity to play together. Playing together and enjoying that level of friendship is what made Ironsong great, and I don't want to lose that.

This suggested model is difficult because it asks for sacrifice. We're asking people if they'd be willing to sacrifice the progress they've made and the promise of future time with close team friends. What's being offered in exchange is an unknown... we don't really know how successful this model would be in enhancing the enjoyment of the Tribe at large. But the possibility of greater benefit is there too; we might find that more people are making more close friends than before, and enjoying the game in new ways each week.

Sacrifice is difficult for anyone, especially when the reward is uncertain.

The bottom line here, as far as I'm concerned, is this: if this change were implemented, would it make the game more fun for more people? That's what we're here for. If your primary concern is for epic loot and top-tier progression, there are plenty of other guilds out there that can oblige you. I'm asking that people consider, CAREFULLY, how much they're willing to give up for the good of their Tribe, and ask themselves honestly how much they think they (and their Tribe) will get in return.
[Image: 2426811FELbm.png]
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#12
Okay, so. I’ve discussed this at length with several people. I’ve thought about it a great deal. And I still really don’t like it.

Firstly, for logistical points. I would echo some of the sentiments that V expressed, particularly our continual difficulty in filling slots when we have people absent. I don’t understand where all these in-guild people who we are supposed to bringing in are going to come from. There are a few people (and by a few, I think I can think of three) who cannot raid Karazhan at the moment because of scheduling conflict – and our group couldn’t raid at the times they can raid anyway. We almost always have to go out of guild to fill our open slots, simply for lack of interest. We’ve successfully nine-manned and even eight-manned many of the encounters in Karazhan, so it is not even so much lacking the ability to continue (although goodness knows having a full, balanced group makes things much easier), but we /all/ hate having to DE loot, especially when there are people who know could have used it, and having only eight or nine people makes a substantial difference in the social dynamic as well. Still, whether in-guild or not, I love cycling people through, to give them the learning and experience of it, and hopefully new shinies at the same time. It is almost always a very fun thing to have a non-“regular” along when we have a spot, to add spice to Vent and join into our general insanity – I love people’s reactions to that. I’m not opposed to bring in others when we are lacking a team member or two, I want to make that very clear. But this leads into my biggest problem, the very core of the issue for me.

Let me begin this bundle of thoughts by saying I love almost everyone I know in Ironsong. But much like any other social structure, there are people I enjoy grouping with, talking with, and generally playing with more than others. We’ve created a strange, wonderful little family in Smash and Grab, and picked up quite a few extended members and tucked them into the ranks of our madness, and it’s something that can’t be replaced or duplicated. As odd as it may be to have built such an attachment to a group of people I have (mostly) never met, the bond is very real, and very, very important to me. I know that avoiding cliques is a big concern with the officers, but there you have it. I don’t know. What I cannot state clearly enough is that I do not raid for the loot, and I do not raid because I like raiding (I rather dislike it quite often). If this were the case, I’d likely not be on this server, and I’d surely not be in this guild. I raid because I love doing things and spending time with these 15 or so friends of mine that I’ve trusted and learned with and laughed with and vented my frustrations to and shared so much of myself with and who have given so, so much to me over the past nine months. Maybe that’s not in the spirit of how you want the guild to be, but it’s how I feel. Honesty, yes? Yes, honesty. And if taking away that silly, crazy time with those people who I’ve grown close to –is- in the spirit of Ironsong, then maybe I’ve just completely misunderstood the point over these past two years.

I’m not trying to have an overload with the drama and dire. In the end, heck, I’m probably close to done with Karazhan on Naruth anyway. As Efluvious said, there are new things upcoming to explore and learn. I’ll say openly that I don’t like being told how to do things, or with whom to do them, especially by people who are really not affected one way or the other. But this is much, much more than just me balking, as I hope the above makes clear. It feels like invasion and pulling apart and dilution, and I don’t like it. Were this to be implemented, I would be one of the ones Vanea mentioned who would certainly no longer raid Karazhan. The very thing that makes it worthwhile to me would no longer be there. I’m not trying to be harsh or difficult or disrespectful, but this is how I feel. Take it as you will.
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#13
Good stuff, Naruth, thanks for your contributions and your candor.

In the interest of data collection, who would actually benefit from doing things this way? In other words, who here is NOT in a Karazhan raid and wants to go regularly? Let me know via PM if you're not comfortable replying publicly.
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#14
My first impression is that I'm against it, since I like raiding with a consistent group of people. I'd probably vote no if it were up for vote right now, but I'll think about it and might post more later.
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#15
A few things from someone who dabbles in raids and has only just recently gotten into Karazhan:

First off, I know that Wingspirit and Anca have incredible luck with getting those purple lootz on the raids I get to attend. Wingspirit wasn't called the MC Ninja for nothing, ya know. Anca's first Kara run netted her 4 purples, because she was the only hunter and (I think) the only non-established person in the raid. That said, you might not believe how touched I was that the raid was practically THROWING the equipment to me! I'm not in it for the equipment, but oh, getting that equipment sure is sweet... But no matter how sweet those purples are, I hope people recognize (as I try to) that someone else might deserve it more. Now, luckily, I'm in a position to pass on a lot more equipment just because of one run.

I don't get to raid much anymore, even though I was majorly into Molten Core and hated to miss a single run. I found again with Kara what I enjoyed so much: Being part of a team. Three characters at 70 now, and nearly all of that was solo work. Having a specific job to do and seeing a plan work (even sometimes seeing one fall apart) makes me so happy. That's why I'll try to get into any IST run I can.

So, for someone not in one of the established Kara groups, I like the idea of rotating people like me in, and I hope that all of us newbies remember not to screw over those who are being kind enough to let us in.
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